#bitfighter IRC Log

IRC Log for 2014-03-05

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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02:11:43 fordcars Uh, raptor? I am writing a tutorial on Building Bitfighter for Pi, but I don't remember, if you compile SDL2, do you get the development headers?
02:15:29 raptor no
02:15:32 raptor you have to in
02:15:41 raptor stall them or specify the header path
02:15:52 raptor oh
02:16:02 raptor if you do 'make install', then yes, you do get the headers
02:16:03 raptor but
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02:16:13 raptor i think if you use raspbian, you can install them via apt
02:17:06 fordcars I don't think SDL2 is there yet
02:17:14 raptor oh ok
02:17:16 raptor well
02:17:21 raptor hmmm
02:17:32 fordcars Would this work: http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=58180&p=489354
02:17:33 raptor then SDL2 isn't really needed, is it?
02:17:44 raptor because the client can use SDL1.2 in X
02:17:50 fordcars Yeah, but it's the future :P
02:17:56 raptor and the server only uses either
02:18:01 raptor heh, yes
02:18:06 fordcars Well, monkey wanted me to explain how to build using SDL2
02:18:07 raptor let me look at that..
02:18:47 raptor yeah those instructions will work, but you only need the main SDL2 library
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02:19:32 fordcars Okokok thanks
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02:54:21 raptor rats, watusimoto didn't commit any changes...
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04:09:22 hilo hi, was Slipzone functionality changed in some way?
04:09:32 raptor hi
04:09:37 raptor like how?
04:10:14 hilo Well I just figured out the mechanism
04:10:27 hilo Setting it to team -1 pretty much acts like a speedzone
04:10:38 hilo and team 0 makes it like I'm used to
04:10:49 hilo Never saw this before
04:11:04 raptor not sure I follow
04:11:06 hilo Team 1 will make it do nothing.
04:11:16 hilo I changed a Goalzone that was team -1
04:11:19 raptor ahh
04:11:19 hilo into a slipzone
04:11:23 hilo and voila
04:11:30 raptor you are editing the level file directly?
04:11:33 hilo yes
04:11:39 raptor ok, you are missing data
04:11:49 raptor you can't convert a GoalZone to a SpeedZone
04:12:00 raptor SpeedZone requires more parameters
04:12:06 hilo It acts like a speedzone
04:12:15 hilo If you go into it with any momentum
04:12:17 raptor sorry slipzone
04:12:18 hilo it will rocket you
04:12:28 raptor I meant slipzone the entire time
04:13:14 raptor join the sam test server
04:13:20 hilo ok
04:13:22 raptor get the current map
04:13:29 raptor and look at how slipzone works
04:14:20 hilo ok got the map
04:14:28 raptor ok, in there you'll see how speedzone works
04:14:42 raptor you are probably not editing the team number, rather the slip number
04:15:05 raptor that's because you can't convert a different zone into a speedzone
04:15:45 hilo ok
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04:17:06 kaen yep, and with a negative slip coefficient, it behaves kind of crazy
04:17:13 hilo I never knew there were diff kinds of slipzones
04:17:13 kaen it used to crash...
04:17:20 kaen there wasn't until 019
04:17:47 raptor you should know that SlipZones are experimental and might be removed from the game at any time
04:17:52 raptor it's why they're not in the editor
04:18:00 hilo Yes I realize that
04:23:11 raptor ok great
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05:32:56 fordcars Ohhh interesting behaviour in SlipZones
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05:47:13 fordcars raptor, are you still here? I can't remember, if I get the source with Mercurial, is the build directory already there, or do I have to make it?
05:47:21 raptor hi
05:47:27 raptor build directory is ther
05:47:29 raptor there
05:49:37 Nothing_Much is it time to upgrade the server? :D
05:50:29 fordcars Ok sweet
05:50:34 fordcars Nope haha
05:50:48 fordcars Writing a tutorial for Building Bitfighter on Raspberry Pi
05:50:57 fordcars !gci
05:50:57 BFLogBot GCI Students Welcome!  Please see: http://bitfighter.org/wiki/index.php/GCI_Student_Bootstrap for getting started.
05:53:04 Nothing_Much Quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
05:53:19 fordcars Oh, and finally, do I use cmake on Raspberry Pi , raptor?
05:53:30 raptor yes
05:53:31 raptor but
05:53:42 raptor with the option -DUSE_SDL2=1
05:53:48 fordcars Ahhh right
05:54:01 fordcars cmake .. -DUSE_SDL2=1; make
05:54:02 fordcars ?
05:55:34 raptor do the .. last
05:55:46 raptor cmake -DUSE_SDL2=1 ..
06:05:22 fordcars Oh okok
06:06:40 fordcars Alright, done!
06:06:56 fordcars Not the prettiest, but it'll be good for now
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07:35:15 fordcars Night!
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16:43:00 raptor good day!
16:44:07 bobdaduck I should make sure everything is ready for the party!
16:44:13 bobdaduck plays dwarf fortress instead
16:45:12 watusimoto hi
16:57:01 raptor hi
16:57:17 raptor watusimoto: did you see my response here:  http://bitfighter.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2206&p=22878#p22878
16:57:55 watusimoto I did not.  Does that mean we can upload that to GameJolt to provide a single download for folks?
16:58:08 raptor yes, for 32/64 bit
16:58:14 raptor I'm pretty sure it'll work almost anywhere
16:58:21 watusimoto we can try :-)
16:58:23 raptor it works on my openSUSE box
16:58:31 watusimoto would it make sense to put that on our downloads page as well?
16:58:40 watusimoto (since we're going through the trouble of building it...)
16:58:50 raptor and trouble it is!
16:59:09 raptor I think it would make sense - obviously the optimal build will be whatever the distro provides
16:59:23 raptor but this should work and maybe only crash in a handful of cases...  :)
16:59:37 watusimoto Let's list it with the other downloads, perhaps with a note that it is a "fallback"
16:59:59 watusimoto we can work out the exact text later
17:00:13 watusimoto when we do the 019c release
17:00:22 raptor 019b?
17:00:41 watusimoto whatever we decided to call it
17:01:00 watusimoto 019b is fine
17:01:33 raptor the one we're releasing this week
17:01:42 watusimoto yes.
17:01:42 raptor after bobdaduck finds all the bugs for us in his part tonight
17:01:47 raptor *party
17:01:52 watusimoto so we're holding off until tomorrow?
17:01:58 watusimoto (that's ok with me)
17:02:14 raptor I thought having bobdaduck's party was a good chance to verify things
17:02:24 watusimoto sure
17:02:36 raptor so if you're OK with one more day, I think it would be good
17:02:44 watusimoto sure, we wait
17:10:16 Canseco Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
17:11:18 raptor also, migrating to GLES 2 is definitely something we should do
17:11:20 raptor but
17:11:27 raptor it's non-trivial
17:11:37 raptor me may want to do some sort of abstraction layer
17:11:40 raptor *we
17:11:46 watusimoto I know we've talked about this before
17:11:56 watusimoto will GLES2 work on all platforms?
17:12:07 raptor but I think kaen did a lot of the work already in one of his clones:  http://code.google.com/r/bkconrad-bitfighter-shaders/source/browse
17:12:23 raptor GLES 2 will work on all platforms that support OpenGL 2
17:12:36 raptor but if we want to support OGL 1, then no it wouldn't work
17:12:46 kaen there's no abstraction layer in that clone :/
17:12:51 watusimoto do we want to souuprot ogl1?
17:12:58 watusimoto is there any use case for that?
17:13:04 raptor good question
17:14:15 raptor looks like older OSX (10.4) might need it
17:14:49 raptor but we've talked about dropping 10.4 support after 019
17:15:16 raptor although I think we do have some active members that still use it (like Quartz)
17:15:38 raptor people's old macbooks just don't die, i guess
17:16:30 watusimoto well, if we do need to support it, then we definitely need that abstraction layer
17:16:37 raptor actually
17:16:59 watusimoto we already do a lot of our drawing with primitives like drawSquare()
17:17:00 raptor kaen: isn't EGL an abstraction layer for OpenGL versions?
17:17:10 watusimoto we could just expand that
17:17:15 raptor yeah, all of those primitives would go away
17:17:37 watusimoto or become our new abstraction layer
17:17:50 raptor sorry, i mean the abstraction layer would have to use shaders vs the OGL calls we use now
17:18:33 watusimoto ah, I see
17:18:39 watusimoto sort of
17:19:04 raptor this graphic:  http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenGL-ES
17:19:12 raptor we use the 'fixed function pipeline'
17:19:36 raptor the abstraction layer would require us to toggle between those and 'programmable shader pipeline'
17:19:39 watusimoto no what I mean is I need to better grok shaders
17:19:53 raptor ah, think:  uploadable bits of code
17:20:22 raptor basically a routine you load into the graphics card and it use that, instead of calling the functions with the CPU
17:20:31 watusimoto ok
17:20:50 watusimoto so something like drawSquare would become a shader?
17:20:58 watusimoto or is that still too high level?
17:20:59 raptor although I'm not too clear on how they're loaded, run, etc.  kaen definitely knows better
17:21:22 raptor still too high
17:22:17 raptor think replacing the innards of renderVertexArray
17:22:37 kaen drawSquare would bind a square's vertices to a vertex buffer, then call drawArrays on those verts. then the GPU would use the currently bound program to color the actual pixels contained in the square
17:23:45 raptor ^^ yeah, kaen definitely knows more than me at this point
17:23:53 kaen and you would have some specific shader program bound. an "identity" shader is just the fixed pipeline reimplemented in a shader
17:24:00 kaen or you could have a shader that turns every pixel purple
17:24:14 raptor but shader isn't color only, is it?
17:24:19 kaen it's mostly color
17:24:31 kaen there's also a "vertex" shader which can manipulate the location of each vertex
17:24:31 raptor then is it 'fragments' that are the routines?
17:24:37 raptor ah, yes
17:24:42 raptor vertex shader, that's right
17:24:50 kaen there's different portions to each program, mainly vertex and fragment
17:25:30 kaen the vertex shader is responsible for translating from model space -> world space -> camera space -> screen space
17:25:39 kaen which ends up being like one line in the identity shader
17:26:20 watusimoto sounds complex... it will probably make more sense when I've seen the code
17:26:30 kaen and then the GL determines which screen pixels (fragments) needs to be rendered for a set of vertices
17:26:38 kaen and then runs the fragment shader for each pixel
17:26:59 kaen and then your fragment shader picks a color
17:27:10 raptor yeah, it's basically taught from an understanding of how the entire OpenGL pipeline works
17:27:25 kaen yeah. because you're replacing almost the entire fixed pipeline
17:27:36 kaen you manually pass in model/view/projection matrices
17:27:53 kaen texture vertices, light positions/attributes
17:27:56 kaen everything
17:28:31 kaen but once you make a little scaffolding, it's very straightforward
17:30:00 raptor actually looks like OSX 10.4.9 has OpenGL 2.0
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17:30:44 kaen oh cool
17:30:54 kaen that'd be awesome to just drop ogl1
17:31:58 raptor I'm trying to think - what does windows xp support?
17:32:58 raptor ha!  default software implementation is OpenGL 1.1
17:33:00 raptor boo
17:34:14 Nothing_Much hi guys
17:34:16 Nothing_Much what's going on?
17:34:45 raptor bitfighter!
17:35:02 Nothing_Much woot!
17:35:50 raptor kaen: what's your take on EGL?:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EGL_%28API%29
17:36:37 raptor seems like EGL is an official abstraction layer for all the GL technologies from Khronos
17:37:07 Nothing_Much are we talking about mobile again?
17:37:08 Nothing_Much o.o
17:37:26 kaen I have no idea
17:37:29 kaen never heard of it
17:37:41 Nothing_Much kaen: You never heard of EGL?
17:37:50 kaen nope
17:38:00 Nothing_Much dude! Wayland and Mir are using those!
17:38:08 Nothing_Much or those EGL thing
17:39:22 watusimoto well, that's twice today I was burned by python string replacements not happenig in place, and instead returning the modified string
17:40:00 kaen yeah. sounds to me like it connects GL/GLES to the native windowing system
17:40:30 Nothing_Much I think I understand what you said
17:40:37 kaen for the purpose of... rendering directly into a window system buffer? some low level synchronization?
17:40:48 Nothing_Much or not
17:41:02 kaen I don't really understand it myself.
17:41:12 raptor I think it abstracts OpenGL versions as well as OpenVG
17:41:32 kaen now that would be perfect
17:41:34 raptor you initialize EGL, use it to draw, then it transforms it to whatever is supported on the system
17:42:12 Nothing_Much the system being the game or the OS?
17:42:21 Nothing_Much because if that means mobile support then that'd be awesome
17:42:58 raptor OS
17:43:07 raptor OS/hardware
17:43:17 raptor i got to go to a meeting, back soon...
17:44:33 kaen I dunno man... that looks like it just procures rendering surfaces/contexts.
17:45:09 kaen which is cool because normally you'd have to implement that once per windowing system since GL doesn't actually provide an API for that
17:45:46 kaen but I don't think it's a cross-GL abstraction layer
17:58:59 Nothing_Much kaen: is it possible to ask someone about it that has experience with EGL?
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18:20:25 Nothing_Much 8PM?
18:20:26 Nothing_Much aw man
18:20:31 Nothing_Much I have class at that time :((
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18:27:57 Nothing_Much Hey fordcars
18:28:03 fordcars Hi
18:29:12 fordcars raptor, can 10.4 only use OpenGl, no ES?
18:30:03 fordcars Is there even a difference?
18:30:08 Nothing_Much fordcars: 10.4 what?
18:30:31 fordcars Sorry, Mac os 10.4 :)
18:30:38 Nothing_Much oh okay
18:32:22 fordcars I was reading the logs
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18:54:50 raptor back for a bit
19:00:08 raptor Watusimoto: If you have a Linux box available, you should test this:  http://bitfighter.org/~raptor/files/bitfighter-019a-Linux-standalone.tar.gz
19:00:29 Watusimoto ok, just unpack and run?
19:00:33 raptor yep
19:00:40 Watusimoto ah... will have to be tomorrow
19:00:43 raptor unpack, run the 'bitfighter' script inside
19:00:46 raptor ok
19:00:48 Watusimoto I have no linux client available
19:00:52 Watusimoto only servers
19:00:59 Watusimoto but will try
19:01:04 Watusimoto that's the desura package?
19:01:17 raptor yes-ish
19:01:27 Watusimoto my machine won;t be the best test, as it already has a bitfighter, so thus all the requirements
19:01:27 raptor the desura isn't a package, but that funny MCF format
19:01:30 Watusimoto right
19:01:43 raptor that's the tarball of the full directory I made for Desura
19:02:00 raptor ah right
19:02:12 raptor hmm, maybe I have an old VM lying around somewhere...
19:02:19 Watusimoto well, I will try it
19:02:26 Watusimoto maybe Nothing_Much can test it too
19:02:50 raptor it already works on my system
19:03:21 raptor oh, i found an old debian 5 system
19:08:40 penalty has joined
19:18:44 raptor doesn't run on debian 5:  GLIBC_2.11 not found
19:18:48 raptor debian 5 uses 2.7
19:20:04 raptor i guess debian 5 is older than I thought...
19:21:05 raptor back later
19:37:34 Watusimoto what getLevelInfoFromCodeChunk() could be with regexp
19:37:35 Watusimoto http://pastie.org/8876959
19:37:45 Watusimoto (current, then new)
19:38:03 Watusimoto unfortunately, I've concluded regexp aren't really the right tool for this job
19:38:16 Watusimoto or at least I think I have
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20:12:40 Nothing_Much hi what's up?
20:16:39 Watusimoto Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
20:23:32 kaen EGL provides:
20:23:33 kaen Mechanisms for creating rendering surfaces (windows, pbuffers, pixmaps) onto which client APIs can draw and share
20:23:33 kaen Methods to create and manage graphics contexts for client APIs
20:23:33 kaen Ways to synchronize drawing by client APIs as well as native platform rendering APIs.
20:24:33 kaen taken from https://www.khronos.org/egl/
20:24:47 fordcars Doesn't Bitfighter already use EGL?
20:25:14 Nothing_Much no clue lol
20:27:01 fordcars Me neither haha
20:27:12 fordcars I just always got an error about that on Raspberry Pi
20:28:08 kaen maybe sdl uses egl to conjure up contexts
20:28:21 kaen sounds like it would save them from writing X code
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21:51:10 YoshiSmb has joined
21:51:27 YoshiSmb Hello everybody!
21:55:26 kaen hi!
21:56:30 YoshiSmb it's been a long time huh?
22:30:08 Nothing_Much Hey YoshiSmb
22:33:23 YoshiSmb Hey
22:37:46 fordcars Later!
22:37:53 fordcars Quit (Quit: Page closed)
22:39:44 YoshiSmb nobody is online right now...
22:56:35 bobdaduck_ YoshiSmb: there's a party in two hours!
22:57:06 bobdaduck_ Which I should be preparing for, because I'm sure its ridiculously glitchy
22:57:12 bobdaduck_ But I'm playing dwarf fortress instead
22:57:45 YoshiSmb Ok, see you after 2 hours, for now, im afk.
23:03:07 bobdaduck_ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
23:37:01 Skybax has joined
23:37:07 Skybax Hey guys
23:37:17 Skybax Got a theoretical question for ya
23:40:57 HylianSavior has joined
23:42:40 Skybax How much do you think a patent for a perpetual motion machine that generates electricity would sell for? x)
23:46:53 YoshiSmb Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
23:49:21 Skybax Anyones?

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02:11:43	fordcars	Uh, raptor? I am writing a tutorial on Building Bitfighter for Pi, but I don't remember, if you compile SDL2, do you get the development headers?
02:15:29	raptor	no
02:15:32	raptor	you have to in
02:15:41	raptor	stall them or specify the header path
02:15:52	raptor	oh
02:16:02	raptor	if you do 'make install', then yes, you do get the headers
02:16:03	raptor	but
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02:16:13	raptor	i think if you use raspbian, you can install them via apt
02:17:06	fordcars	I don't think SDL2 is there yet
02:17:14	raptor	oh ok
02:17:16	raptor	well
02:17:21	raptor	hmmm
02:17:32	fordcars	Would this work: http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=58180&p=489354
02:17:33	raptor	then SDL2 isn't really needed, is it?
02:17:44	raptor	because the client can use SDL1.2 in X
02:17:50	fordcars	Yeah, but it's the future :P
02:17:56	raptor	and the server only uses either
02:18:01	raptor	heh, yes
02:18:06	fordcars	Well, monkey wanted me to explain how to build using SDL2
02:18:07	raptor	let me look at that..
02:18:47	raptor	yeah those instructions will work, but you only need the main SDL2 library
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02:19:32	fordcars	Okokok thanks
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02:54:21	raptor	rats, watusimoto didn't commit any changes...
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04:09:22	hilo	hi, was Slipzone functionality changed in some way?
04:09:32	raptor	hi
04:09:37	raptor	like how?
04:10:14	hilo	Well I just figured out the mechanism
04:10:27	hilo	Setting it to team -1 pretty much acts like a speedzone
04:10:38	hilo	and team 0 makes it like I'm used to
04:10:49	hilo	Never saw this before
04:11:04	raptor	not sure I follow
04:11:06	hilo	Team 1 will make it do nothing.
04:11:16	hilo	I changed a Goalzone that was team -1
04:11:19	raptor	ahh
04:11:19	hilo	into a slipzone
04:11:23	hilo	and voila
04:11:30	raptor	you are editing the level file directly?
04:11:33	hilo	yes
04:11:39	raptor	ok, you are missing data
04:11:49	raptor	you can't convert a GoalZone to a SpeedZone
04:12:00	raptor	SpeedZone requires more parameters
04:12:06	hilo	It acts like a speedzone
04:12:15	hilo	If you go into it with any momentum
04:12:17	raptor	sorry slipzone
04:12:18	hilo	it will rocket you
04:12:28	raptor	I meant slipzone the entire time
04:13:14	raptor	join the sam test server
04:13:20	hilo	ok
04:13:22	raptor	get the current map
04:13:29	raptor	and look at how slipzone works
04:14:20	hilo	ok got the map
04:14:28	raptor	ok, in there you'll see how speedzone works
04:14:42	raptor	you are probably not editing the team number, rather the slip number
04:15:05	raptor	that's because you can't convert a different zone into a speedzone
04:15:45	hilo	ok
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04:17:06	kaen	yep, and with a negative slip coefficient, it behaves kind of crazy
04:17:13	hilo	I never knew there were diff kinds of slipzones
04:17:13	kaen	it used to crash...
04:17:20	kaen	there wasn't until 019
04:17:47	raptor	you should know that SlipZones are experimental and might be removed from the game at any time
04:17:52	raptor	it's why they're not in the editor
04:18:00	hilo	Yes I realize that
04:23:11	raptor	ok great
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05:32:56	fordcars	Ohhh interesting behaviour in SlipZones
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05:47:13	fordcars	raptor, are you still here? I can't remember, if I get the source with Mercurial, is the build directory already there, or do I have to make it?
05:47:21	raptor	hi
05:47:27	raptor	build directory is ther
05:47:29	raptor	there
05:49:37	Nothing_Much	is it time to upgrade the server? :D
05:50:29	fordcars	Ok sweet
05:50:34	fordcars	Nope haha
05:50:48	fordcars	Writing a tutorial for Building Bitfighter on Raspberry Pi
05:50:57	fordcars	!gci
05:50:57	BFLogBot	GCI Students Welcome! Please see: http://bitfighter.org/wiki/index.php/GCI_Student_Bootstrap for getting started.
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05:53:19	fordcars	Oh, and finally, do I use cmake on Raspberry Pi , raptor?
05:53:30	raptor	yes
05:53:31	raptor	but
05:53:42	raptor	with the option -DUSE_SDL2=1
05:53:48	fordcars	Ahhh right
05:54:01	fordcars	cmake .. -DUSE_SDL2=1; make
05:54:02	fordcars	?
05:55:34	raptor	do the .. last
05:55:46	raptor	cmake -DUSE_SDL2=1 ..
06:05:22	fordcars	Oh okok
06:06:40	fordcars	Alright, done!
06:06:56	fordcars	Not the prettiest, but it'll be good for now
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07:35:15	fordcars	Night!
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16:43:00	raptor	good day!
16:44:07	bobdaduck	I should make sure everything is ready for the party!
16:44:13		bobdaduck plays dwarf fortress instead
16:45:12	watusimoto	hi
16:57:01	raptor	hi
16:57:17	raptor	watusimoto: did you see my response here: http://bitfighter.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2206&p=22878#p22878
16:57:55	watusimoto	I did not. Does that mean we can upload that to GameJolt to provide a single download for folks?
16:58:08	raptor	yes, for 32/64 bit
16:58:14	raptor	I'm pretty sure it'll work almost anywhere
16:58:21	watusimoto	we can try :-)
16:58:23	raptor	it works on my openSUSE box
16:58:31	watusimoto	would it make sense to put that on our downloads page as well?
16:58:40	watusimoto	(since we're going through the trouble of building it...)
16:58:50	raptor	and trouble it is!
16:59:09	raptor	I think it would make sense - obviously the optimal build will be whatever the distro provides
16:59:23	raptor	but this should work and maybe only crash in a handful of cases... :)
16:59:37	watusimoto	Let's list it with the other downloads, perhaps with a note that it is a "fallback"
16:59:59	watusimoto	we can work out the exact text later
17:00:13	watusimoto	when we do the 019c release
17:00:22	raptor	019b?
17:00:41	watusimoto	whatever we decided to call it
17:01:00	watusimoto	019b is fine
17:01:33	raptor	the one we're releasing this week
17:01:42	watusimoto	yes.
17:01:42	raptor	after bobdaduck finds all the bugs for us in his part tonight
17:01:47	raptor	*party
17:01:52	watusimoto	so we're holding off until tomorrow?
17:01:58	watusimoto	(that's ok with me)
17:02:14	raptor	I thought having bobdaduck's party was a good chance to verify things
17:02:24	watusimoto	sure
17:02:36	raptor	so if you're OK with one more day, I think it would be good
17:02:44	watusimoto	sure, we wait
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17:11:18	raptor	also, migrating to GLES 2 is definitely something we should do
17:11:20	raptor	but
17:11:27	raptor	it's non-trivial
17:11:37	raptor	me may want to do some sort of abstraction layer
17:11:40	raptor	*we
17:11:46	watusimoto	I know we've talked about this before
17:11:56	watusimoto	will GLES2 work on all platforms?
17:12:07	raptor	but I think kaen did a lot of the work already in one of his clones: http://code.google.com/r/bkconrad-bitfighter-shaders/source/browse
17:12:23	raptor	GLES 2 will work on all platforms that support OpenGL 2
17:12:36	raptor	but if we want to support OGL 1, then no it wouldn't work
17:12:46	kaen	there's no abstraction layer in that clone :/
17:12:51	watusimoto	do we want to souuprot ogl1?
17:12:58	watusimoto	is there any use case for that?
17:13:04	raptor	good question
17:14:15	raptor	looks like older OSX (10.4) might need it
17:14:49	raptor	but we've talked about dropping 10.4 support after 019
17:15:16	raptor	although I think we do have some active members that still use it (like Quartz)
17:15:38	raptor	people's old macbooks just don't die, i guess
17:16:30	watusimoto	well, if we do need to support it, then we definitely need that abstraction layer
17:16:37	raptor	actually
17:16:59	watusimoto	we already do a lot of our drawing with primitives like drawSquare()
17:17:00	raptor	kaen: isn't EGL an abstraction layer for OpenGL versions?
17:17:10	watusimoto	we could just expand that
17:17:15	raptor	yeah, all of those primitives would go away
17:17:37	watusimoto	or become our new abstraction layer
17:17:50	raptor	sorry, i mean the abstraction layer would have to use shaders vs the OGL calls we use now
17:18:33	watusimoto	ah, I see
17:18:39	watusimoto	sort of
17:19:04	raptor	this graphic: http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenGL-ES
17:19:12	raptor	we use the 'fixed function pipeline'
17:19:36	raptor	the abstraction layer would require us to toggle between those and 'programmable shader pipeline'
17:19:39	watusimoto	no what I mean is I need to better grok shaders
17:19:53	raptor	ah, think: uploadable bits of code
17:20:22	raptor	basically a routine you load into the graphics card and it use that, instead of calling the functions with the CPU
17:20:31	watusimoto	ok
17:20:50	watusimoto	so something like drawSquare would become a shader?
17:20:58	watusimoto	or is that still too high level?
17:20:59	raptor	although I'm not too clear on how they're loaded, run, etc. kaen definitely knows better
17:21:22	raptor	still too high
17:22:17	raptor	think replacing the innards of renderVertexArray
17:22:37	kaen	drawSquare would bind a square's vertices to a vertex buffer, then call drawArrays on those verts. then the GPU would use the currently bound program to color the actual pixels contained in the square
17:23:45	raptor	^^ yeah, kaen definitely knows more than me at this point
17:23:53	kaen	and you would have some specific shader program bound. an "identity" shader is just the fixed pipeline reimplemented in a shader
17:24:00	kaen	or you could have a shader that turns every pixel purple
17:24:14	raptor	but shader isn't color only, is it?
17:24:19	kaen	it's mostly color
17:24:31	kaen	there's also a "vertex" shader which can manipulate the location of each vertex
17:24:31	raptor	then is it 'fragments' that are the routines?
17:24:37	raptor	ah, yes
17:24:42	raptor	vertex shader, that's right
17:24:50	kaen	there's different portions to each program, mainly vertex and fragment
17:25:30	kaen	the vertex shader is responsible for translating from model space -> world space -> camera space -> screen space
17:25:39	kaen	which ends up being like one line in the identity shader
17:26:20	watusimoto	sounds complex... it will probably make more sense when I've seen the code
17:26:30	kaen	and then the GL determines which screen pixels (fragments) needs to be rendered for a set of vertices
17:26:38	kaen	and then runs the fragment shader for each pixel
17:26:59	kaen	and then your fragment shader picks a color
17:27:10	raptor	yeah, it's basically taught from an understanding of how the entire OpenGL pipeline works
17:27:25	kaen	yeah. because you're replacing almost the entire fixed pipeline
17:27:36	kaen	you manually pass in model/view/projection matrices
17:27:53	kaen	texture vertices, light positions/attributes
17:27:56	kaen	everything
17:28:31	kaen	but once you make a little scaffolding, it's very straightforward
17:30:00	raptor	actually looks like OSX 10.4.9 has OpenGL 2.0
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17:30:44	kaen	oh cool
17:30:54	kaen	that'd be awesome to just drop ogl1
17:31:58	raptor	I'm trying to think - what does windows xp support?
17:32:58	raptor	ha! default software implementation is OpenGL 1.1
17:33:00	raptor	boo
17:34:14	Nothing_Much	hi guys
17:34:16	Nothing_Much	what's going on?
17:34:45	raptor	bitfighter!
17:35:02	Nothing_Much	woot!
17:35:50	raptor	kaen: what's your take on EGL?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EGL_%28API%29
17:36:37	raptor	seems like EGL is an official abstraction layer for all the GL technologies from Khronos
17:37:07	Nothing_Much	are we talking about mobile again?
17:37:08	Nothing_Much	o.o
17:37:26	kaen	I have no idea
17:37:29	kaen	never heard of it
17:37:41	Nothing_Much	kaen: You never heard of EGL?
17:37:50	kaen	nope
17:38:00	Nothing_Much	dude! Wayland and Mir are using those!
17:38:08	Nothing_Much	or those EGL thing
17:39:22	watusimoto	well, that's twice today I was burned by python string replacements not happenig in place, and instead returning the modified string
17:40:00	kaen	yeah. sounds to me like it connects GL/GLES to the native windowing system
17:40:30	Nothing_Much	I think I understand what you said
17:40:37	kaen	for the purpose of... rendering directly into a window system buffer? some low level synchronization?
17:40:48	Nothing_Much	or not
17:41:02	kaen	I don't really understand it myself.
17:41:12	raptor	I think it abstracts OpenGL versions as well as OpenVG
17:41:32	kaen	now that would be perfect
17:41:34	raptor	you initialize EGL, use it to draw, then it transforms it to whatever is supported on the system
17:42:12	Nothing_Much	the system being the game or the OS?
17:42:21	Nothing_Much	because if that means mobile support then that'd be awesome
17:42:58	raptor	OS
17:43:07	raptor	OS/hardware
17:43:17	raptor	i got to go to a meeting, back soon...
17:44:33	kaen	I dunno man... that looks like it just procures rendering surfaces/contexts.
17:45:09	kaen	which is cool because normally you'd have to implement that once per windowing system since GL doesn't actually provide an API for that
17:45:46	kaen	but I don't think it's a cross-GL abstraction layer
17:58:59	Nothing_Much	kaen: is it possible to ask someone about it that has experience with EGL?
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18:20:25	Nothing_Much	8PM?
18:20:26	Nothing_Much	aw man
18:20:31	Nothing_Much	I have class at that time :((
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18:27:57	Nothing_Much	Hey fordcars
18:28:03	fordcars	Hi
18:29:12	fordcars	raptor, can 10.4 only use OpenGl, no ES?
18:30:03	fordcars	Is there even a difference?
18:30:08	Nothing_Much	fordcars: 10.4 what?
18:30:31	fordcars	Sorry, Mac os 10.4 :)
18:30:38	Nothing_Much	oh okay
18:32:22	fordcars	I was reading the logs
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18:54:50	raptor	back for a bit
19:00:08	raptor	Watusimoto: If you have a Linux box available, you should test this: http://bitfighter.org/~raptor/files/bitfighter-019a-Linux-standalone.tar.gz
19:00:29	Watusimoto	ok, just unpack and run?
19:00:33	raptor	yep
19:00:40	Watusimoto	ah... will have to be tomorrow
19:00:43	raptor	unpack, run the 'bitfighter' script inside
19:00:46	raptor	ok
19:00:48	Watusimoto	I have no linux client available
19:00:52	Watusimoto	only servers
19:00:59	Watusimoto	but will try
19:01:04	Watusimoto	that's the desura package?
19:01:17	raptor	yes-ish
19:01:27	Watusimoto	my machine won;t be the best test, as it already has a bitfighter, so thus all the requirements
19:01:27	raptor	the desura isn't a package, but that funny MCF format
19:01:30	Watusimoto	right
19:01:43	raptor	that's the tarball of the full directory I made for Desura
19:02:00	raptor	ah right
19:02:12	raptor	hmm, maybe I have an old VM lying around somewhere...
19:02:19	Watusimoto	well, I will try it
19:02:26	Watusimoto	maybe Nothing_Much can test it too
19:02:50	raptor	it already works on my system
19:03:21	raptor	oh, i found an old debian 5 system
19:08:40		penalty has joined
19:18:44	raptor	doesn't run on debian 5: GLIBC_2.11 not found
19:18:48	raptor	debian 5 uses 2.7
19:20:04	raptor	i guess debian 5 is older than I thought...
19:21:05	raptor	back later
19:37:34	Watusimoto	what getLevelInfoFromCodeChunk() could be with regexp
19:37:35	Watusimoto	http://pastie.org/8876959
19:37:45	Watusimoto	(current, then new)
19:38:03	Watusimoto	unfortunately, I've concluded regexp aren't really the right tool for this job
19:38:16	Watusimoto	or at least I think I have
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20:12:40	Nothing_Much	hi what's up?
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20:23:32	kaen	EGL provides:
20:23:33	kaen	Mechanisms for creating rendering surfaces (windows, pbuffers, pixmaps) onto which client APIs can draw and share
20:23:33	kaen	Methods to create and manage graphics contexts for client APIs
20:23:33	kaen	Ways to synchronize drawing by client APIs as well as native platform rendering APIs.
20:24:33	kaen	taken from https://www.khronos.org/egl/
20:24:47	fordcars	Doesn't Bitfighter already use EGL?
20:25:14	Nothing_Much	no clue lol
20:27:01	fordcars	Me neither haha
20:27:12	fordcars	I just always got an error about that on Raspberry Pi
20:28:08	kaen	maybe sdl uses egl to conjure up contexts
20:28:21	kaen	sounds like it would save them from writing X code
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21:51:27	YoshiSmb	Hello everybody!
21:55:26	kaen	hi!
21:56:30	YoshiSmb	it's been a long time huh?
22:30:08	Nothing_Much	Hey YoshiSmb
22:33:23	YoshiSmb	Hey
22:37:46	fordcars	Later!
22:37:53		fordcars Quit (Quit: Page closed)
22:39:44	YoshiSmb	nobody is online right now...
22:56:35	bobdaduck_	YoshiSmb: there's a party in two hours!
22:57:06	bobdaduck_	Which I should be preparing for, because I'm sure its ridiculously glitchy
22:57:12	bobdaduck_	But I'm playing dwarf fortress instead
22:57:45	YoshiSmb	Ok, see you after 2 hours, for now, im afk.
23:03:07		bobdaduck_ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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23:37:07	Skybax	Hey guys
23:37:17	Skybax	Got a theoretical question for ya
23:40:57		HylianSavior has joined
23:42:40	Skybax	How much do you think a patent for a perpetual motion machine that generates electricity would sell for? x)
23:46:53		YoshiSmb Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
23:49:21	Skybax	Anyones?