#bitfighter IRC Log

IRC Log for 2016-06-14

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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11:49:31 bobdaduck Hi!
11:56:41 Void7 Hi y'all!
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13:39:25 bobdaduck Void7: I just got back from a 2 year hiatus to Mississippi!
13:39:37 bobdaduck So I got me some real good redneck'uns down there
13:43:26 Nothing_Much Southern conservatives are the last hope of this country, sadly.
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13:53:47 bobdaduck Southern conservatives talk about two things: Food, and Muslims chopping peoples heads off.
13:54:12 bobdaduck I remember fondly a day where not a conversation went by where one or both of those things didn't come up.
13:54:22 Nothing_Much Well, we just had a shooting from radical Islamists here in FL
13:54:30 Nothing_Much Specifically targetting a gay bar..
13:54:38 bobdaduck Every door we knocked on. "I already know Jesus, but what do you think about those Muslims chopping people's heads off?"
13:55:16 Nothing_Much Lolwut
13:55:40 bobdaduck EVERY. DOOR.
13:56:09 Nothing_Much They at least know how to defend themselves
13:56:15 bobdaduck More than a hundred conversations. Food or Muslims.
13:56:27 Nothing_Much I don't blame them for being paranoid though
13:56:33 bobdaduck That's true. I think about 95% of the population hunts.
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13:56:48 Nothing_Much Like I said, there was a shooting that happened a few days ago
13:57:45 bobdaduck I heard of it, yeah.
13:58:00 Nothing_Much 50 people dead
13:58:03 Nothing_Much Gun free zone
13:58:28 Nothing_Much I now fully understand why conservatives are passionate about their guns
13:58:42 Nothing_Much But I'm more Libertarian, I believe in the rights of everyone
13:59:23 bobdaduck I'm fairly Libertarian myself.
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15:30:16 watusimoto bobdaduck: Bernie Sanders libertarian, or Rand Paul libertarian?
15:34:19 bobdaduck hah
15:34:34 bobdaduck Honestly, I haven't looked into either.
15:35:33 watusimoto so you like the ideals of drug legalization, prostitution legalization, easy access to abortion, deregulation of alcohol?
15:35:50 watusimoto those are all pretty basic libertarian positions
15:36:27 bobdaduck Eh
15:36:46 bobdaduck I don't really feel like its the government's job to tell people what sin is.
15:37:03 watusimoto all those positions I outlined are consistent with that
15:37:22 bobdaduck Yeah.
15:37:24 watusimoto I happen to agree, to a certain extent.
15:38:01 watusimoto But I also value pollution controls, public parks and wildlands, and other things that are an anathema to libertarians
15:38:43 watusimoto I don't think everything should be for sale, or only available to those who can afford them. Things like clean air or water.
15:39:45 watusimoto If you look at what libertarianism actually means, it's a pretty radical system of beliefs, based on a very flawed understanding of human nature.
15:40:05 watusimoto I would go as far as to say it is as flawed, and in the same respectes, as hardline communism
15:40:45 watusimoto It's simply an unworkable philosophy, and the inevitable result is corporate control of everything, and a sort of reversion to feudalism.
15:42:20 watusimoto Libertariansim has some good ideas -- keeping the gov't out of your personal life (which is what you said), but beyond that it's kind of bonkers.
15:43:02 bobdaduck Not like I agree with every aspect of it either. Just more of it than other systems that have been proposed to me.
15:43:29 watusimoto What about liberal western democracy?
15:43:58 watusimoto That takes ideas from many sources and blends them together in moderation.
15:44:16 watusimoto Which is kind of what we have (and, probably moreso, what Canada and Europe have)
15:45:01 bobdaduck I haven't researched them much.
15:46:51 watusimoto Like most things in life, anywone wanting to sell you on a complete political philosophy that sounds neat and complete is probably a nutter or a con man. Like most human endeavors, politics is messy, and if there were any good, clean, happy solutions, we'd have them already.
15:47:43 watusimoto libertariansism is a great system for the strong to prey on the weak.
15:51:01 bobdaduck Well, when you pose it like that... I think I'd prefer that to a system for the weak to prey on the strong?
15:54:20 bobdaduck Down in Mississippi it was ridiculous, as far as welfare goes.
15:55:35 bobdaduck Probably like 70% of the population was on foodstamps, and nobody cared.
15:56:05 bobdaduck Meet people who refused to look for a job because any job would pay worse than what they were getting from the government
15:56:25 bobdaduck etc, libertarian philosophy is pretty against that.
15:56:33 watusimoto I believe it. But what is the alternative?
15:57:13 watusimoto I'm sure there are some people who can work, and some who can't. Are there jobs for those who can? How do you tell who is in which group?
15:57:57 watusimoto I've changed my opinion on this, and now think that if the cost of living in a society where no one starves is that some people who can work don't, that's worth it.
15:58:41 watusimoto I've decided I don't really care about that -- there are too many things I'd rather focus on than making sure there are no freeloaders in the system. It just isn't worth my while.
15:59:21 watusimoto The libertarian ideal would be to let people starve, unless a charity helped them out. I'm not so hot on that.
16:05:55 bobdaduck Its less about freeloaders as it is about encouraging people to become freeloaders. The people there don't seek out better jobs or skills, because there's no need.
16:06:39 bobdaduck I think I for every person who genuinely needed the help (or at least, it would be dire without it) there were at least 30 people who were doing fine and just not trying.
16:06:50 bobdaduck It was kind of disgusting.
16:06:51 watusimoto Are they leading a life you would want to lead? Living on welfare is a pretty low level of existence.
16:08:20 bobdaduck Is it? They seemed to have basically everything from xbox to cars, and just lived in trailers.
16:09:34 watusimoto In truth, it's hard to tell who can do what kind of job. I heard a great story about the disability system on (I think) the Freakanomics podcast (which I think you might like). They interviewed someone who said the only jobs she could get required her to stand up all day, which she can't do. She said she would gladly work in a "sitting job", but that she couldn't find one. Also, I ran into an old friend, who told me she had suffered n
16:56:59 watusimoto http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/
16:57:25 watusimoto "if you have a particular back problem and a college degree, you're not disabled. Without the degree, you are."
17:31:08 bobdaduck I can add testimony to a lot of the stories in there; saw lots and lots and lots of it. Seems pretty accurate.
18:16:37 watusimoto so the question for me is is it worth letting some people in need go hungry in order to reduce idleness amongst those who can work, because that is what I think the question comes down to. My answer is no, it is not. I think being productive is worthy in itself, but I'm not going to get too bent if someone wants to skate by and do nothing. Life is too short for that.
18:17:32 watusimoto And, to be honest, I'm one of those who pays far more into the system than I get out, so I speak as a net donor.
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11:49:31	bobdaduck	Hi!
11:56:41	Void7	Hi y'all!
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13:39:25	bobdaduck	Void7: I just got back from a 2 year hiatus to Mississippi!
13:39:37	bobdaduck	So I got me some real good redneck'uns down there
13:43:26	Nothing_Much	Southern conservatives are the last hope of this country, sadly.
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13:53:47	bobdaduck	Southern conservatives talk about two things: Food, and Muslims chopping peoples heads off.
13:54:12	bobdaduck	I remember fondly a day where not a conversation went by where one or both of those things didn't come up.
13:54:22	Nothing_Much	Well, we just had a shooting from radical Islamists here in FL
13:54:30	Nothing_Much	Specifically targetting a gay bar..
13:54:38	bobdaduck	Every door we knocked on. "I already know Jesus, but what do you think about those Muslims chopping people's heads off?"
13:55:16	Nothing_Much	Lolwut
13:55:40	bobdaduck	EVERY. DOOR.
13:56:09	Nothing_Much	They at least know how to defend themselves
13:56:15	bobdaduck	More than a hundred conversations. Food or Muslims.
13:56:27	Nothing_Much	I don't blame them for being paranoid though
13:56:33	bobdaduck	That's true. I think about 95% of the population hunts.
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13:56:48	Nothing_Much	Like I said, there was a shooting that happened a few days ago
13:57:45	bobdaduck	I heard of it, yeah.
13:58:00	Nothing_Much	50 people dead
13:58:03	Nothing_Much	Gun free zone
13:58:28	Nothing_Much	I now fully understand why conservatives are passionate about their guns
13:58:42	Nothing_Much	But I'm more Libertarian, I believe in the rights of everyone
13:59:23	bobdaduck	I'm fairly Libertarian myself.
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15:30:16	watusimoto	bobdaduck: Bernie Sanders libertarian, or Rand Paul libertarian?
15:34:19	bobdaduck	hah
15:34:34	bobdaduck	Honestly, I haven't looked into either.
15:35:33	watusimoto	so you like the ideals of drug legalization, prostitution legalization, easy access to abortion, deregulation of alcohol?
15:35:50	watusimoto	those are all pretty basic libertarian positions
15:36:27	bobdaduck	Eh
15:36:46	bobdaduck	I don't really feel like its the government's job to tell people what sin is.
15:37:03	watusimoto	all those positions I outlined are consistent with that
15:37:22	bobdaduck	Yeah.
15:37:24	watusimoto	I happen to agree, to a certain extent.
15:38:01	watusimoto	But I also value pollution controls, public parks and wildlands, and other things that are an anathema to libertarians
15:38:43	watusimoto	I don't think everything should be for sale, or only available to those who can afford them. Things like clean air or water.
15:39:45	watusimoto	If you look at what libertarianism actually means, it's a pretty radical system of beliefs, based on a very flawed understanding of human nature.
15:40:05	watusimoto	I would go as far as to say it is as flawed, and in the same respectes, as hardline communism
15:40:45	watusimoto	It's simply an unworkable philosophy, and the inevitable result is corporate control of everything, and a sort of reversion to feudalism.
15:42:20	watusimoto	Libertariansim has some good ideas -- keeping the gov't out of your personal life (which is what you said), but beyond that it's kind of bonkers.
15:43:02	bobdaduck	Not like I agree with every aspect of it either. Just more of it than other systems that have been proposed to me.
15:43:29	watusimoto	What about liberal western democracy?
15:43:58	watusimoto	That takes ideas from many sources and blends them together in moderation.
15:44:16	watusimoto	Which is kind of what we have (and, probably moreso, what Canada and Europe have)
15:45:01	bobdaduck	I haven't researched them much.
15:46:51	watusimoto	Like most things in life, anywone wanting to sell you on a complete political philosophy that sounds neat and complete is probably a nutter or a con man. Like most human endeavors, politics is messy, and if there were any good, clean, happy solutions, we'd have them already.
15:47:43	watusimoto	libertariansism is a great system for the strong to prey on the weak.
15:51:01	bobdaduck	Well, when you pose it like that... I think I'd prefer that to a system for the weak to prey on the strong?
15:54:20	bobdaduck	Down in Mississippi it was ridiculous, as far as welfare goes.
15:55:35	bobdaduck	Probably like 70% of the population was on foodstamps, and nobody cared.
15:56:05	bobdaduck	Meet people who refused to look for a job because any job would pay worse than what they were getting from the government
15:56:25	bobdaduck	etc, libertarian philosophy is pretty against that.
15:56:33	watusimoto	I believe it. But what is the alternative?
15:57:13	watusimoto	I'm sure there are some people who can work, and some who can't. Are there jobs for those who can? How do you tell who is in which group?
15:57:57	watusimoto	I've changed my opinion on this, and now think that if the cost of living in a society where no one starves is that some people who can work don't, that's worth it.
15:58:41	watusimoto	I've decided I don't really care about that -- there are too many things I'd rather focus on than making sure there are no freeloaders in the system. It just isn't worth my while.
15:59:21	watusimoto	The libertarian ideal would be to let people starve, unless a charity helped them out. I'm not so hot on that.
16:05:55	bobdaduck	Its less about freeloaders as it is about encouraging people to become freeloaders. The people there don't seek out better jobs or skills, because there's no need.
16:06:39	bobdaduck	I think I for every person who genuinely needed the help (or at least, it would be dire without it) there were at least 30 people who were doing fine and just not trying.
16:06:50	bobdaduck	It was kind of disgusting.
16:06:51	watusimoto	Are they leading a life you would want to lead? Living on welfare is a pretty low level of existence.
16:08:20	bobdaduck	Is it? They seemed to have basically everything from xbox to cars, and just lived in trailers.
16:09:34	watusimoto	In truth, it's hard to tell who can do what kind of job. I heard a great story about the disability system on (I think) the Freakanomics podcast (which I think you might like). They interviewed someone who said the only jobs she could get required her to stand up all day, which she can't do. She said she would gladly work in a "sitting job", but that she couldn't find one. Also, I ran into an old friend, who told me she had suffered n
16:56:59	watusimoto	http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/
16:57:25	watusimoto	"if you have a particular back problem and a college degree, you're not disabled. Without the degree, you are."
17:31:08	bobdaduck	I can add testimony to a lot of the stories in there; saw lots and lots and lots of it. Seems pretty accurate.
18:16:37	watusimoto	so the question for me is is it worth letting some people in need go hungry in order to reduce idleness amongst those who can work, because that is what I think the question comes down to. My answer is no, it is not. I think being productive is worthy in itself, but I'm not going to get too bent if someone wants to skate by and do nothing. Life is too short for that.
18:17:32	watusimoto	And, to be honest, I'm one of those who pays far more into the system than I get out, so I speak as a net donor.
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