BitFighter Mini Map

[Little_Apple]

Or you could just hit c.

[sam686]

I have 2 monitor screens on my desktop computer, i would like to have a full commander map on one screen, and a playing area on another screen, without joining in a second client.

Or you could just hit c.

That is not mini map, it is full map.

No flashing or slow flashing means the ship is healthy, fast flashing means it needs health desperately.

Blink on low health isn't very useful, if the the ship is low health, that ship might still have full energy to shield itself. I might want it to flash only when that ship is holding the flag, as it grabs attention.

[ZoombeR]

I have 2 monitor screens on my desktop computer, i would like to have a full commander map on one screen, and a playing area on another screen, without joining in a second client.

how would that be fair to players with 1 screen.

[sam686]

how would that be fair to players with 1 screen.

Easy, split screen. Left half could be your map view, right half could be your play area, which seems to go into mini map again.

[karamazovapy]

I have 2 monitor screens on my desktop computer, i would like to have a full commander map on one screen, and a playing area on another screen, without joining in a second client.

how would that be fair to players with 1 screen.

It wouldn't/couldn't be. Having two tiny versions isn't the same thing.

[Skybax]

Obviously buying two monitors would give you an advantage then. Just like buying a 40 inch screen gives you an advantage over a 10 inch.

[Little_Apple]

Or you could just hit c.

Just like buying a 40 inch screen gives you an advantage over a 10 inch.

How is it an advantage? Arn't you just displaying the same information on the 40 in. as you would the 10 in.? I don't think it's how big your monitor is, I think it's whats on the monitor that matters. I don't understand how having a larger screen would put you at an advantage.

[Skybax]

Your eyes open wider, letting your pupils take in more light and giving your brain more cognitive information.

Your eyes open wider, letting your pupils take in more light and giving your brain more cognitive information.

But wouldn't that depend on how close you are to the monitor?

[ZoombeR]

Your eyes open wider, letting your pupils take in more light and giving your brain more cognitive information.

yeah but i encourage a natural advantage like that!

[Skybax]

But wouldn't that depend on how close you are to the monitor?

No.

yeah but i encourage a natural advantage like that!

That's just because you have a big monitor but you don't have two monitors. If you had a little monitor, what would you say then?

[karamazovapy]

Having played bitfighter on a 46" television, I can say that using a huge monitor is not an advantage - at least for me. It would be an advantage if you could see the command map that big the whole time you played, though. The usefulness of the commander's map is related to how clearly and easily you can see other players on it. Having an entire screen (even a 10" screen) dedicated to the commander's map would be an advantage over anyone who didn't have it, although the size of the advantage would be directly related to how effectively you were able to use it in gameplay. An experienced player would get a lot more out of it than a newbie. For standard gameplay, though, monitor size and resolution don't have a huge impact. That being said, monitor brightness and clarity have some impact on how easy it is to spot mines and spybugs...and players who can adjust their display settings to make mines and spybugs more prominent also have an advantage.

[bobdaduck]

How on earth does this improve anything?

[Little_Apple]

IT DOESNT.

IT DOESNT.

Diddo.

[sam686]

Noticed how stretchy bobdaduck's screenshot is? That is 4:3 ratio stretched to 16:9 ratio. Instead of stretching, how about leaving it as a black bar at the side, and putting in the minimap at one of the black bar side?

That is 4:3 ratio stretched to 16:9 ratio. Instead of stretching, how about leaving it as a black bar at the side, and putting in the minimap at one of the black bar side?

Then all the 4:3 displays would be put at a disadvantage.

[bobdaduck]

How on earth does my screen resolution discredit my question?

[Little_Apple]

Because it could give you an unfair advantage. Get a new monitor.

[karamazovapy]

Certain things we'll never be able to equalize...monitor size, resolution, video card...

...while I don't think we should over analyze these things, I'm not sure we should add features that depend on specific hardware.

[sam686]

Get a new monitor.

A lot of new monitors and new laptops are 16:9, and a lot of old monitor, older then 7 years old, are 4:3 ratio. New 4:3 ratio monitors are getting harder to find in stores, 16:9 ratio monitors seems to be taking over.

Both my monitors happens to be old, one is VGA only LCD 1280x1024 at 75 Hertz refresh rate, 17 inches, (close enough to 4:3), and the other is an old 17 inches CRT monitor at 4:3 ratio capable at 2048 x 1536 at 55 Hertz, or 848 x 480 at 162 Hertz.

[ZoombeR]

yeah but i encourage a natural advantage like that!

That's just because you have a big monitor but you don't have two monitors. If you had a little monitor, what would you say then?

lol, i play on a 13-inch macbook pro. I experience no setback from a giant non-portable tv screen.

[watusimoto]

Why would your ship have more detailed information about enemies than allies?

I didn't interpret it as such. Maybe I misread, but what I saw was a request for health status of ships (in my mind, primarily teammates) to be presented on the cmdrs map, or on the minimap that has so oft been requested.

[ZoombeR]

I really like the c-map for what it does. (Try equipping enhanced sensor and pressing c!) Still, the idea of a minimap or radar has come up in the past. How do you think it should work?

maybe we should come back to, giving the mini-map only to sensor users? that module is looking kind of lonely right now..

[sam686]

that module is looking kind of lonely right now..

There is already some changes to sensor module, including staying zoomed out all the time just for having Sensor, and Spy bug being no longer a weapon, but a double tap sensor button to place spy bugs.

The bigger the level is, the harder it is to see the commander map when zoomed out all the way.

[bobdaduck]

Why on earth is this even an issue? Minimap is a terrible idea.

[sam686]

Why on earth is this even an issue?

I think a mini-map could benefit Bitfighter, but it should have a different purpose than the Commander's map. It should be used for navigation, so you don't have to constantly stop and check the Commander's map to figure out how to get to where you want to go.

Oh and one more problem is players who use mouse to aim and fire, they have a very hard time aiming while in the middle of switching on and off the commander, where mini-map or map overlay might fix that problem.

Posts: 833
Joined: June 11th, 2011, 12:31 pm
Location: Who cares.

The man with these stats is correct

[Little_Apple]

Posts: 833
Joined: June 11th, 2011, 12:31 pm
Location: Who cares.

The man with these stats is correct

You are wrong.
Yay! Paradoxes!

[ZoombeR]

This statement is false.

Also, probably one of the main underlying issues here is the fact that I am now forced to use a mini-map on part of my screen, which I find completely annoying, and utterly distracting, while also taking up valuable screen real estate. The solution isn't so simple as to giving me the option to disable minimaps. Now I'm at a big disadvantage towards every other player using the Mini-map. So it gives only players that support the feature, an advantage, but brings a huge disadvantage to those who don't want it, yet it's still called a "Feature". Now that's some paradox.

[sam686]

Also, probably one of the main underlying issues here is the fact that I am now forced to use a mini-map on part of my screen, which I find completely annoying, and utterly distracting

I find the C-map more distracting then mini-map when using it, because of the full screen zoom out effect. Can't see or aim very good while in C-map.

while also taking up valuable screen real estate.

Split screen may be a solution, so it doesn't cover up any screen area, it just shrinks the screen a little. If your screen is too small, get a bigger screen.

Can someone refresh my memory as to why we need a mini map?

[ZoombeR]

while also taking up valuable screen real estate.

Split screen may be a solution, so it doesn't cover up any screen area, it just shrinks the screen a little. If your screen is too small, get a bigger screen.

Ok, now explain what those who can't get a bigger screen should do?

Also, probably one of the main underlying issues here is the fact that I am now forced to use a mini-map on part of my screen, which I find completely annoying, and utterly distracting, while also taking up valuable screen real estate. The solution isn't so simple as to giving me the option to disable minimaps.

The mini-map I'm picturing in my head takes up a tiny portion of the screen and is partially transparent. Take what you're thinking of and cut it down by 50%.

Now I'm at a big disadvantage towards every other player using the Mini-map. So it gives only players that support the feature, an advantage, but brings a huge disadvantage to those who don't want it, yet it's still called a "Feature". Now that's some paradox.

To be fair, you could say that about any feature. By refusing to use cloak, for example, it could be argued that you are at a disadvantage over the other players who do use cloak.

Can someone refresh my memory as to why we need a mini map?

Re-read the thread, it's been answered multiple times. We don't need a mini-map for the same reason we don't need to add almost any new feature, but some of us want to add a mini-map because we think it'll be useful.

[bobdaduck]

I haven't seen one coherent thought on why mini-map will add anything to the game.

Mini Map might be useful when using Spybugs. Why view the whole map just to see what the spybug see? Mini map might also be useful to see what your team see.

Note that spybug can see ships with flags with arrow pointer, but there is no way to know if the enemy ship (without flag) is in your spybug area until you view the whole map to see it.

For big levels, I seem to want some 3D view more then mini map or zoom out (press C) map in Bitfighter, as I can see walls far away in front of me, while still being able to see things big near me.

We could take dots a bit further, with the color of the dots varying depending on health. A green dot if that ship has full or nearly full health, yellow for medium health, red for little health. Then there could also be a square or triangle if a ship has a flag/ball. Even if we don't get a mini-map, I'd still like to see that sort of thing in the Commander's map.

No flashing or slow flashing means the ship is healthy, fast flashing means it needs health desperately.

I like this idea

Aha! That's actually a really good use for the mini-map. I must admit that listing navigation as the reason for implementing a mini-map is kind of pitiful. But there's an idea -- showing enemy positions, even if they only appear for a few seconds when they pass by your teammates.

With the Commander's map, you can't reasonably expect to survive for long with it open, so you have to stop and go. And thus determining real-time enemy positions can be a challenge.

Noticed how stretchy bobdaduck's screenshot is? That is 4:3 ratio stretched to 16:9 ratio. Instead of stretching, how about leaving it as a black bar at the side, and putting in the minimap at one of the black bar side?

I think all of these are coherent ideas. You may not like all of them, but they still are logically sound, or damn close.

[bobdaduck]

none of those are arguments on why its a good idea. Just discussing how to implement the idea, except for the one about showing enemy positions.

But adding another layer of knowledge... Would that really improve gameplay, or would it change it in a way that simply makes the game more complicated, removing one element of luck in the process? Is it really a good idea to know enemy positions, or would it just make the game easier?

Is easy the makings of a good game?

[karamazovapy]

It would make certain aspects of the game easier, if you used the mini map in a smart way. Other things it wouldn't impact at all.

I'm sort of against it because it builds in yet another layer of complexity - something I have to track or not track at my risk. Because I'm comfortable with the game as it is and the attention I devote to each aspect, I don't want to divide that attention any further.

[ZoombeR]

It would make certain aspects of the game easier, if you used the mini map in a smart way. Other things it wouldn't impact at all.

I'm sort of against it because it builds in yet another layer of complexity - something I have to track or not track at my risk. Because I'm comfortable with the game as it is and the attention I devote to each aspect, I don't want to divide that attention any further.

This is exactly why I'm completely against the idea.

Playing the devil's advocate here to answer bobdaduck's question, I view the mini-map essentially as a way to know where you are in the world in relation to your base and to the enemy base. I see it as means of not getting lost, or pre-calculating your routes, or maybe since you can simply do that with "C", making it easier on you to have the ability to quickly glimpse at the thing in hot-pursuit so you know the path your taking is to safety, and not to danger.

Again, that's the best I can hypothetically see come out of this idea. Otherwise, its total useless / a feature someone will probably get very good at, use against me the whole time, and suggest to me that the reason the gameplay is unfair is because I should probably enable mini-map.

See, I don't view this idea as even a neutral one, (meaning a pointless addition with no positives), like _k and bobdaduck seem to. Now, ether way, people like me always sacrifice with this, and there's no disabling it. Disabling it is just the other way I'm loosing, since other's have an edge on me. Sure other features have perks, like cloak as sky suggested, that I won't benefit from if i don't use, but the fact of the matter you're missing here is the basic principle that a current feature in zap is one that sacrifices your ability to use another. If I want to go and use cloak, excellent; now one of my module slots is used up. If i think cloak is useless, and i feel like I'm at a disadvantage if i only use one module, I can remember I now have two modules to fill up, not one, since the other is taken by cloak. I can simply select Turbo and Shield, as opposed to Shield and Cloak modules, avoiding the perk and gaining something of my own.

Maybe I alone am not a large enough voice to stop this idea, nor do I want to really bring down the party that's eager to get something like this in, but adding such a major feature like this one, requires adding counterbalance to the clients that do not prefer to have the mod enabled.This is what I'm trying to explain before with the Turbo, Shield, and Cloak modules.

Ok, so now we do that, and those features counter-act each other, making the game still balanced for all, providing a helpful out-of-the-wayalternative for the ones that don't want the feature. However, how much have we accomplished? For what? All this time and controversy for a Mini-Map.

The question to be is, do we really want to go through all this? Is it worth it?

[sam686]

You could argue most of that to my 3D feature too, yet it is optional feature that I added on my modified 015a client. Maybe I could later (after release of 016) add mini-map on my modified 016, maybe together with 3D, and show some videos of those games using mini-map.

[bobdaduck]

This is the most ridiculous I have ever.

A pointless at best feature, but more likely dangerous and bad, and sam is going to go ahead and put forth the effort to code it in.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

[karamazovapy]

Forking the code for variant servers is bad, but that's what we've had through 015a. It has created confusion over supported features and misrepresented the game as a whole to new players experiencing unpolished and unvetted game elements.

Publicly distributing a forked client undermines the integrity of the game. If one or two people have been using a client that grants them extra abilities over the standard client, that's disappointing and somewhat dishonest, but there's nothing we can do about it. Openly distributing a modified client is hijacking the release cycle and completely subverts the work of the developers and community members who have come together to package a fair public release.

There's nothing wrong with tinkering with the code, and while those experiments should be kept private, there's little you can say about sharing conceptual work as a series of open experiments. However, releasing a parallel build that undermines the integrity and fairness of the game is absolutely unacceptable and should not be tolerated.

[ZoombeR]

which is why thankfully most of the features are server-side.

This is the most ridiculous I have ever.

A pointless at best feature, but more likely dangerous and bad, and sam is going to go ahead and put forth the effort to code it in.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Are you kidding? You're getting mad at Sam because he wants to try to implement a feature for his own use on his own time? He never said he was going to make this a public feature, rather that he was going to make videos of it. I see nothing wrong with that.

I appreciate that you don't agree with me on the value of the feature, but please try to have some respect. We're still in the brainstorming phase -- there's no telling where this will go yet.

That said. There is a clear problem with the commander's map -- it has little real-time value. A minimap of sorts has been proposed but not favored, so why don't we discuss some alternatives? What about modifying the commander's map itself in some way?

Let's just try to keep this discussion civil and on-topic, okay?

[karamazovapy]

While sam can do whatever he wants privately, I think bobdaduck has a point when it comes to forking the code with changes that can make the game unfair.

[bobdaduck]

I'm frustrated because its a terrible idea and you people are still fighting for it.

[Little_Apple]

No mini map is needed or wanted.

While sam can do whatever he wants privately, I think bobdaduck has a point when it comes to forking the code with changes that can make the game unfair.

Mini maps are that strong in a game...?

While sam can do whatever he wants privately, I think bobdaduck has a point when it comes to forking the code with changes that can make the game unfair.

_k - That's fair.

I'm frustrated because its a terrible idea and you people are still fighting for it.

bobdaduck - No, you're frustrated because you think it's a terrible idea. Perspectives, man! I think Rick Santorum is batshit but there are people who think he's a good politician, and I will respect their opinions, just disagree with them. What kind of world would we live in if we considered all ideas that we disagreed with bad ideas, and never continued the discussion?

You've voiced your opinion, all I ask is that you let people voice theirs without feeling like they're going to be hated on. Who knows, maybe somebody will come up with an idea that you end up liking!