Why Dungeons Suck

[Quartz]

Once you've played a dungeon once, you've played the map. That's it. There is no replay value, at all, ever. Especially if the dungeon has features that you can easily memorize (e.g. most dungeons).

Furthermore, the author of the level has to put in a metric crap ton of work ... for people to enjoy the level once. What could the author do instead? Make a normal map, putting in half or less of that work, for people to enjoy the level many, many times.

Seriously. I have no doubt that I will make another dungeon again at some point, but they tend to be very repetitive, boring, and a whole lot of time spent for very little satisfaction. There is a reason I made QuartzdaDuckgeon (AKA Mormon Cores) and Q-Emporer's Revenge player vs. player. The one player aspect of dungeons is just horribly boring.

Discuss.

[bobdaduck]

This is my main problem.

The "no replay value" is more than true.

And also the part where everyone is cooperating is boring. If you REALLY want to play cooperatively... Then cooperate with your bloody team in the bloody team game.

Dungeons aren't hard. Novelty maps have their place... Say... Once a month? That'd be about right.

[Quartz]

*meme*
This is my main problem.

Haha, glad you liked that. (:

And also the part where everyone is cooperating is boring. If you REALLY want to play cooperatively... Then cooperate with your bloody team in the bloody team game.

I really like the cooperative aspect of some dungeons. But as you say, cooperating with your bloody team in the bloody team game is usually even more satisfying when done properly. For instance, this is me in CTF:
Rush to get the flag. Head back to base. Switch module layout to either Sensor+Shield or Sensor+Repair. Hold down and/or repair the fort while I wait for my team to return the flag.
It works very well.

Dungeons aren't hard. Novelty maps have their place... Say... Once a month? That'd be about right.

Haha. If you're referring to the mapmaker's job, then I would agree to that "once a month" idea.

No replay value? Maybe, if each segment of the dungeon can be beaten with mere memory. But there are a lot of dungeons that have skill-based challenges, and these dungeons have just as much replay value as a non-dungeon map.

[bobdaduck]

No replay value? Maybe, if each segment of the dungeon can be beaten with mere memory. But there are a lot of dungeons that have skill-based challenges, and these dungeons have just as much replay value as a non-dungeon map.

Speed zone mazes

Have just as much replay value

Real?

[Quartz]

Gonna have to agree to disagree there.

I do believe that replay value is worsened when a dungeon challenge is beaten easier from memory; but I also believe that the replay value of challenges is still lacking when it's a legitimate challenge.

I don't think they are THAT bad. They are still not as good as just plain fighting though.

actully ive never had that problem it takes skill and also tryign to beat your bet solo time fora dungeon is fun. trying beating ACK A DINGEON wihout chaging the time limit for explae it is extremly hard.

[Quartz]

I don't think they are THAT bad. They are still not as good as just plain fighting though.

This is my point exactly.

?

I don't understand how you can find it not fun but I find dungeons as fun, even more fun, then when you first tried it.

[kaen]

Lamp you have just discovered what is called an opinion.

In general, an opinion is a belief about matters commonly considered to be subjective, i.e., it is based on that which is less than absolutely certain, and is the result of emotion or interpretation

No replay value? Maybe, if each segment of the dungeon can be beaten with mere memory. But there are a lot of dungeons that have skill-based challenges, and these dungeons have just as much replay value as a non-dungeon map.

Speed zone mazes

Have just as much replay value

Real?

I completely butchered my point. Let me try again.

Curly-Q. Every time I play that map, I have the same routine. I force my way into the enemy base via the teleporter, swoop in and take the flag, then race back to my base. That's it.

I acknowledge that non-dungeon maps have more variety than dungeon maps, because even in Curly-Q someone else might take the enemy flag first, or someone might attack me, or our base might be under attack, etc. And that's clearly not the case in most dungeon maps. But for me personally, I have a routine, and I tend to stick to it. After playing Curly-Q for the tenth time I get bored of it, just like I get bored after 10 rounds on a dungeon map.

I think my point was that just because I know what's coming up in a dungeon map, that doesn't necessarily mean it has worse replayability than a non-dungeon map. This is subjective to me, of course, because I am fond of dungeons and enjoy the social aspect of them. Sure, non-dungeon maps are probably more fun to play with a crowd of 8 people, but if the server changes to a dungeon I'm not going to get frustrated or anything.

[Quartz]

That is a good point sky_lark. Many maps that are considered decent are just as boring/lack replay value as a dungeon.

The one player aspect of dungeons is just horribly boring.

I like dungeons for their co-op aspect. Maybe it's time to explore a new breed of co-op maps? Dungeons grew out of a desire to create something different with limited tools. We now have programmable bots and scripts and triggers... maybe it's time for something new? I think part of the appeal of dungeon maps is the co-op aspect.

[bobdaduck]

Co op maps... Hm.

I dunno if robots are flexible enough yet... I'll maybe work on this though.

What's ironic is that the two players who hate dungeons make the best dungeons!

[bobdaduck]

What's ironic is that the two players who hate dungeons make the best dungeons!

You can't make dungeons until you hate dungeons or your dungeon will suck.

You can't make dungeons until you hate dungeons or your dungeon will suck.

This is a very good point. Why you guys are making dungeon maps, I don't know, but you two make great maps because you know what features are crap and to leave out and what features are good.

[Quartz]

You can't make dungeons until you hate dungeons or your dungeon will suck.

This is a very good point. Why you guys are making dungeon maps, I don't know, but you two make great maps because you know what features are crap and to leave out and what features are good.

sky_lark has my permission to be my Valentine just for this comment.

Silliness aside, I greatly appreciate the comment.

sky_lark has my permission to be my Valentine just for this comment.

Okay, but you have to wear the dress.

[Quartz]

sky_lark has my permission to be my Valentine just for this comment.

Okay, but you have to wear the dress.

Who are you to make such demands of me?! If you truly loved me you would love me as I am!!

BOBDADUCK IS MY VALENTINE NOW. BECAUSE HE LOVES ME

[bobdaduck]

[sam686]

Once you've played a dungeon once, you've played the map. That's it. There is no replay value, at all, ever. Especially if the dungeon has features that you can easily memorize (e.g. most dungeons).

Once you played a campaign mode once on other game, that is it. There is no replay value, especially on games that doesn't change when playing campaign again on same game, which is most games.

Furthermore, the author of the level has to put in a metric crap ton of work ... for people to enjoy the level once. What could the author do instead? Make a normal map, putting in half or less of that work, for people to enjoy the level many, many times.

Hundreds of people make one game having campaign mode. They put far more work just for people to enjoy the campaign once. What can the game makers do instead? Avoid making campaign?

Seriously. I have no doubt that I will make another dungeon again at some point, but they tend to be very repetitive, boring, and a whole lot of time spent for very little satisfaction. There is a reason I made QuartzdaDuckgeon (AKA Mormon Cores) and Q-Emporer's Revenge player vs. player. The one player aspect of dungeons is just horribly boring.

Playing campaign over and over again on a same game is repetitive, boring, and and a whole lot of time spent for very little satisfaction. Most games campaign only allows single player, which farther make it boring.

Overall, dungeons and campaign mode is quite similar, both having some of same problems. Campain on most games seem to become garbage when beaten once, especially when many games only allows a single player in campaign.

The plus side of having level editor is, it only takes hours or days to make a level, compare that to making a separate game which takes many months or years.

What's ironic is that the two players who hate dungeons make the best dungeons!

You can't make dungeons until you hate dungeons or your dungeon will suck.

xD

Once you've played a dungeon once, you've played the map. That's it. There is no replay value, at all, ever. Especially if the dungeon has features that you can easily memorize (e.g. most dungeons).

Once you played a campaign mode once on other game, that is it. There is no replay value, especially on games that doesn't change when playing campaign again on same game, which is most games.

Furthermore, the author of the level has to put in a metric crap ton of work ... for people to enjoy the level once. What could the author do instead? Make a normal map, putting in half or less of that work, for people to enjoy the level many, many times.

Hundreds of people make one game having campaign mode. They put far more work just for people to enjoy the campaign once. What can the game makers do instead? Avoid making campaign?

Seriously. I have no doubt that I will make another dungeon again at some point, but they tend to be very repetitive, boring, and a whole lot of time spent for very little satisfaction. There is a reason I made QuartzdaDuckgeon (AKA Mormon Cores) and Q-Emporer's Revenge player vs. player. The one player aspect of dungeons is just horribly boring.

Playing campaign over and over again on a same game is repetitive, boring, and and a whole lot of time spent for very little satisfaction. Most games campaign only allows single player, which farther make it boring.

Overall, dungeons and campaign mode is quite similar, both having some of same problems. Campain on most games seem to become garbage when beaten once, especially when many games only allows a single player in campaign.

The plus side of having level editor is, it only takes hours or days to make a level, compare that to making a separate game which takes many months or years.

Totally, there aren't many people who will replay Assasin's Creed or Call of Duty single player, but these games have had major success.

[Little_Apple]

successful meaning they made a lot of money.

Which means a lot of people bought the game and enjoyed it.

But I only have a Pentium 4 to play 'Good Graphics' games