Timestamps are in GMT/BST.
| 00:00:00 | raptor | (family stuff) |
| 00:00:19 | YoshiSmb | ohh. me too. |
| 00:00:22 | bobdaduck | Sup yoshi |
| 00:00:30 | bobdaduck | (I'm busy too. Just saying hi) |
| 00:00:41 | | raptor Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 00:00:45 | YoshiSmb | yea |
| 00:00:50 | | raptor has joined |
| 00:00:50 | | ChanServ sets mode +o raptor |
| 00:01:28 | YoshiSmb | (i just asked. because my modem work's very good to host a bitfighter server. but i think it's can support less than 10 players) |
| 00:13:18 | | YoshiSmb Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
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| 00:37:47 | fordcars | http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&vhs=1&v=RXZ6eol4His ---- anybody elase getting really weird video in this video? |
| 00:38:09 | fordcars | oh sorry tape mode was on |
| 00:38:16 | fordcars | wait, what?!? |
| 00:38:32 | fordcars | youtube has tape mode? |
| 00:39:04 | fordcars | http://business.financialpost.com/2013/04/15/youtube-launches-vhs-mode-to-celebrate-video-tapes-57th-birthday/ -- ok |
| 01:04:53 | | Little_Apple has joined |
| 01:11:40 | | koda has joined |
| 01:20:54 | raptor | well kaen, i got a response on my fontstash bug: https://github.com/akrinke/Font-Stash/issues/5 |
| 01:29:58 | | Little_Apple Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 01:35:15 | raptor | oh my |
| 01:35:20 | raptor | I think I found our issue... |
| 01:35:27 | raptor | and it is our fault... testing |
| 01:44:27 | raptor | fixed it... now to apologize to the font-stash guy |
| 01:53:01 | | BFLogBot Commit: 19bdf8a076b9 | Author: buckyballreaction | Message: Fix deleting/creating font stash when changing screen modes. This gets rid of the graphic artifacts I was seeing |
| 01:53:04 | raptor | another one bites the duse |
| 01:53:07 | raptor | *dust |
| 02:03:53 | | raptor Quit () |
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| 02:30:10 | raptor | http://sam6.25u.com/upload/10screenshot_0.png |
| 02:30:18 | raptor | ^^ mac with the new fonts |
| 02:35:18 | raptor | ah, fixed |
| 02:35:20 | | BFLogBot Commit: e2069a17414a | Author: buckyballreaction | Message: Update OSX project |
| 02:35:22 | raptor | missing resources |
| 02:35:31 | | raptor washes hands after using OSX |
| 02:55:58 | | BFLogBot Commit: ab28e0111e6d | Author: buckyballreaction | Message: Convert our draw_arcs editor plugin to use the new plugin:addItem method. Should we just kill the addLevelLine one? |
| 03:04:08 | | koda waves at BFLogBot |
| 03:04:20 | raptor | hi koda |
| 03:04:38 | koda | Sup |
| 03:04:51 | raptor | how are you coping with the loss of GSoC? |
| 03:11:12 | | kaen Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 03:13:46 | koda | Meh |
| 03:13:51 | koda | Despair |
| 03:14:09 | koda | But my team maybe found a few places in an umbrella org |
| 03:14:18 | raptor | oh really? |
| 03:14:23 | raptor | they have those for gsoc? |
| 03:14:27 | koda | (Opens us, maybe you've heard of it ;)) |
| 03:14:35 | koda | Opensuse* |
| 03:14:44 | koda | (Autocorrection) |
| 03:15:22 | koda | Yeah they are doing something I wanted to do in a bigger way |
| 03:15:31 | koda | Eg hosting several cross projects |
| 03:15:41 | raptor | ha! I work for SUSE/Novell |
| 03:15:57 | raptor | cool |
| 03:19:01 | raptor | i found you!: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:GSOC_ideas#Hedgewars |
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| 03:46:10 | raptor | monologue monologue monologue |
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| 04:21:26 | Fordcars | heh so you can put open source software on the AppStore, but android would probably be simpler, but it would be awesome to have a mobile app |
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| 04:37:41 | raptor | what to do.. |
| 04:47:40 | bobdaduck | What to do? |
| 04:47:55 | bobdaduck | DO THE ZAPDANCE. |
| 04:48:08 | raptor | I have decided to look at the editor snapping bug.. |
| 04:48:12 | raptor | wish me luck |
| 04:48:34 | raptor | I'm starting to dislike that phrase - wish me inspiration |
| 04:59:27 | bobdaduck | lol |
| 04:59:34 | bobdaduck | Good inspiration! |
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| 05:15:58 | raptor | ok, confirmed loading FFs is accurate |
| 05:23:22 | raptor | issue is the anchor in EngineeredItem::findAnchorPointAndNormal is returning slightly off |
| 05:24:32 | raptor | and sleepy time |
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| 15:01:43 | kaen | watusimoto, in Triangulate::processComplex is polygonList the list of polygonal holes? |
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| 15:42:48 | raptor | good morning! |
| 15:47:09 | | BFLogBot Commit: 36dfcc610252 | Author: buckyballreaction | Message: Remove plugin:addLevelLine(). Be ready to update your editor plugins! |
| 15:47:57 | raptor | kaen: processComplex has a 'holeMarkerList' that is passed in, which handles the holes |
| 15:48:25 | kaen | gah |
| 15:49:29 | kaen | also, good morning |
| 15:49:31 | raptor | the 'buildHolesList()' method in BotNavMeshZone |
| 15:49:39 | raptor | builds it up just for Triangle |
| 15:52:30 | kaen | okay, I'm pretty sure buildHolesList only builds the "hole markers" |
| 15:52:45 | kaen | which is just a point at the center of the polygonal hole its associated to |
| 15:52:53 | raptor | ohhhh |
| 15:52:55 | raptor | oh yeah... |
| 15:53:06 | raptor | there was some funny business here I'm remembering |
| 15:53:13 | kaen | and that "solution" in the navmesh code |
| 15:53:21 | kaen | is actually the merged list of polygonal holes |
| 15:53:48 | raptor | no actually |
| 15:54:32 | raptor | the buildHolesList does put in the geometry of the holes, but not separated into polygons - just a straight array of floats |
| 15:55:22 | kaen | okay, new question: do you know why the triangle output has a pointlist *and* a triangle list? |
| 15:55:47 | kaen | everything else gets discarded, but both of those are written to the output data |
| 15:56:30 | watusimoto | so I sent you guys some more depressing video links |
| 15:56:45 | watusimoto | two more players trying to figure out what the heck bitfighter was |
| 15:56:50 | watusimoto | and failing miserably |
| 15:56:53 | watusimoto | :-( |
| 15:56:59 | watusimoto | good morning, btw |
| 15:57:05 | raptor | more demoralization! |
| 15:57:18 | watusimoto | but the upside is that this can perhaps offer some ideas for fixing the problems |
| 15:57:27 | watusimoto | first off, I'd say we should take down the tutorial server |
| 15:57:49 | watusimoto | since that attracted people, but completely befuddled them |
| 15:58:11 | raptor | ok, i'll do it |
| 15:58:21 | raptor | kaen: studying the code.... slowly |
| 15:58:30 | kaen | me too :x |
| 15:58:45 | kaen | took me almost two days to figure it out (incompletely) |
| 15:58:53 | watusimoto | I think we should also create a bot manager; the easiest thing would be to add a line to the hosting menu asking how many bots to play with |
| 15:59:11 | watusimoto | one guy had no one to play with, and was trying to figure out how to add bots... and failed |
| 15:59:25 | kaen | that's definitely a good idea |
| 15:59:43 | watusimoto | I also think there should be an item on the in-game menu that says "bots" |
| 15:59:48 | watusimoto | that lets you do stuff |
| 16:00:30 | watusimoto | and I think we should think about ways to expose the game functionality while people are playing, rather than on a tutorial server |
| 16:00:58 | watusimoto | so the first time a client encoutners a loadout zone, a text box appears and says "Loadout zones let you change your configuration. Press Z to start" |
| 16:01:00 | watusimoto | etc,. |
| 16:01:35 | watusimoto | this is an old idea, but maybe we should try adding some hooks for it |
| 16:01:56 | watusimoto | anway... the vids are rather depressing |
| 16:02:03 | watusimoto | but people are trying the game |
| 16:02:12 | watusimoto | they all seem to think it looks really good |
| 16:02:20 | watusimoto | then... they get confused and leave |
| 16:02:43 | watusimoto | these vids are a poor man's usability testing lab :-) |
| 16:02:48 | raptor | tutorial server has been nuked |
| 16:03:07 | watusimoto | so let's try to get some good out of it |
| 16:03:26 | watusimoto | that's my inspirational message for the day! |
| 16:03:34 | raptor | also |
| 16:03:39 | raptor | bot manager |
| 16:03:58 | raptor | you should look at the original Unreal Tournament (I know, my favorite reference) |
| 16:04:30 | raptor | it has an in-game bot editor that let's you set aggression, defense, favorite weapon, etc. |
| 16:04:49 | raptor | and when you host a game, you have an option in the GUI to have bots balance to a certain number |
| 16:05:45 | watusimoto | We could collect some params like that and pass them to the bots as the bot args |
| 16:05:52 | raptor | yes |
| 16:06:10 | watusimoto | we only have one real bot, so it wouldn't break too much |
| 16:06:24 | kaen | or we could let bots specify their args like plugins |
| 16:07:17 | watusimoto | that could work too, but might be more difficult if we are integrating those args into a larger menu framework. The plugin args are nice because it's just a little popup that interacts with nothing |
| 16:07:47 | watusimoto | It also seems like bot args could be more standardized than plugins could be |
| 16:08:28 | watusimoto | but I think we should try something and see how it looks. That might give us a better idea of how we want to move forward |
| 16:10:01 | watusimoto | On the other hand, bots specifying their own prefs might clarify that there is a difference btwn eliza and s_bot |
| 16:11:14 | watusimoto | my current thinking is that we should try to address some of the issue revealed by the vids and get a release out as soon as possible |
| 16:11:40 | watusimoto | (which might not be too soon with all the outstanding bugs) |
| 16:12:07 | raptor | kaen: what is your current question about Triangle? |
| 16:12:37 | raptor | the processComplex method |
| 16:12:52 | raptor | we care about polygonList and holeMarkerList |
| 16:12:57 | raptor | both of which are polygon lists |
| 16:13:20 | raptor | that method converts the holes list into doubles for input into Triangle |
| 16:14:06 | raptor | then converts the polygonList into an edge list (edges) and a straight array of floats as polygons (coords) as more input into Triangle |
| 16:15:43 | raptor | Triangle then is called |
| 16:15:50 | raptor | (line 1178) |
| 16:16:32 | raptor | and the 'out' struct is transformed into our 'outputData' list of polygons |
| 16:16:38 | raptor | err... triangles |
| 16:16:55 | raptor | that outputData is then fed to recast |
| 16:17:47 | kaen | right, and that data has both a "pointList" and "trianglelist" |
| 16:18:05 | kaen | and I don't understand what those two each represent |
| 16:18:27 | kaen | I would expect one single list of point triplets to represent the resultant triangles |
| 16:18:51 | kaen | I'm trying to get the polypartition data into that format |
| 16:19:33 | kaen | into the pointlist/trianglelist format I mean |
| 16:20:46 | raptor | there's something fundamental I'm missing... I used to know what this all means.. |
| 16:21:31 | raptor | ok |
| 16:21:42 | raptor | our pointList is a flat array of all points of all triangles |
| 16:21:58 | kaen | oh god. and trianglelist is another edge map? |
| 16:22:17 | raptor | the trianglelist is an array of which point indices make up a specific triangle, I think... |
| 16:22:31 | raptor | uh i don't think it is an edgemap |
| 16:22:50 | kaen | oooh I see |
| 16:23:18 | raptor | so it's a way to have two flat lists instead of one complex object list (probably because it's C) |
| 16:23:24 | kaen | I see |
| 16:27:10 | kaen | do you think it would hurt recast if some of the points were duplicated? |
| 16:27:43 | raptor | not sure - I know we had to dedupe before using triangle in the processComplex() |
| 16:28:28 | kaen | well, I'll give it a shot |
| 16:29:07 | raptor | but, there shouldn't be duplicate triangles before recast |
| 16:29:13 | raptor | are you thinking there might be? |
| 16:31:11 | raptor | some people say to use GLU tesselation... |
| 16:31:15 | raptor | as an alternative |
| 16:31:46 | kaen | there won't be duplicate triangles, but the triangles will share points |
| 16:31:53 | raptor | that's OK |
| 16:31:56 | kaen | ok |
| 16:31:59 | raptor | recast expects that in fact |
| 16:33:15 | kaen | okay so I'm just going to dump the points straight from polypartition, and then my trianglelist will just be {0,1,2,3,4,5,6...} |
| 16:33:24 | kaen | sound right? |
| 16:33:58 | raptor | hmmm |
| 16:34:04 | raptor | i *think* so |
| 16:34:16 | raptor | I should read deeper into the Triangle lib.. |
| 16:35:59 | kaen | me too, probably |
| 16:36:23 | kaen | but I got fed up with reading and wanted to at least make it compile with the polypartition call. |
| 16:36:31 | raptor | heh |
| 16:37:15 | watusimoto | hey raptor -- a friendly reminder to mark your checkins with [*] |
| 16:37:23 | raptor | kaen: found it! |
| 16:37:28 | raptor | read triangle.h:101 |
| 16:37:34 | raptor | to line 120 |
| 16:37:44 | watusimoto | like perhaps the one about removing addLevelLine() |
| 16:37:51 | raptor | watusimoto: heh, I'm not so sure the asterisk thing has worked... |
| 16:38:08 | watusimoto | how so? forgetful? |
| 16:38:10 | raptor | because - neither of us has been doing it... |
| 16:38:12 | raptor | yes |
| 16:38:16 | raptor | completely forgot |
| 16:38:18 | watusimoto | I have! :-) |
| 16:38:24 | watusimoto | mostly |
| 16:38:27 | raptor | what? no... |
| 16:38:42 | watusimoto | most of my work wouldn't show up in the changelog |
| 16:39:06 | watusimoto | it can pretty much be summed up as "Prettier UI and a bunch of internal refactoring" |
| 16:39:18 | raptor | nothing font related or UI related has it.. |
| 16:39:20 | raptor | ah |
| 16:39:21 | raptor | ok |
| 16:40:10 | watusimoto | "Prettier UI" |
| 16:40:12 | watusimoto | :-) |
| 16:40:25 | kaen | well I finally got it to compile... |
| 16:40:25 | raptor | i'm going to post an SO post just because I can, about our Triangle issue... |
| 17:03:36 | raptor | OK posted rashly: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16042940/robust-fast-complex-polygon-with-holes-triangulation-c-c-library-in-with-pe |
| 17:03:48 | raptor | my title is a bit long, I'm sure... |
| 17:06:16 | watusimoto | back later! |
| 17:07:27 | kaen | I think you'll get a "SO is not a reccomendation engine" stock answer pretty quick |
| 17:07:39 | watusimoto | raptor: I'd suggest clarifying the paragraph describing what we need: |
| 17:07:40 | watusimoto | We're looking for a C or C++ library that can handle holes as well as any type of irregular polygons placed together in any manner. |
| 17:07:43 | watusimoto | that one |
| 17:07:51 | raptor | you m ay edit! |
| 17:07:55 | raptor | kaen: I expect it |
| 17:07:59 | watusimoto | library that can XXXXX and handle holes |
| 17:08:10 | watusimoto | I can take a look when I get home |
| 17:08:11 | watusimoto | bye! |
| 17:08:25 | | watusimoto Quit (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 17:11:40 | raptor | oh man i'm watching those videos again... |
| 17:11:52 | raptor | it's almost embarrasing... |
| 17:17:09 | raptor | man.. the frustration... |
| 17:17:41 | raptor | maybe we should just remove teh 'INSTRUCTIONS' menu option completely |
| 17:18:41 | kaen | maybe it should replace the login screen as the first thing you see |
| 17:18:46 | raptor | haha |
| 17:20:47 | kaen | "Hope people see the video and decide to play, this is really really well coded!" |
| 17:20:59 | kaen | oh, my sides |
| 17:21:07 | raptor | where is that? |
| 17:21:14 | kaen | top comment on the desura page |
| 17:22:11 | raptor | we really need a BBB... |
| 17:22:12 | kaen | average rating is 9.2 |
| 17:22:49 | raptor | well.. at least desura seems to be working! |
| 17:24:49 | kaen | I have high hopes about debian |
| 17:24:57 | raptor | really? |
| 17:25:10 | raptor | you think it'll filter down quite a bit? |
| 17:25:21 | kaen | filter down? |
| 17:25:25 | kaen | oh yes |
| 17:25:33 | kaen | like a trickle-down effect, certainly |
| 17:25:35 | raptor | I mean, once in the debian repo - any sub-distro may take notice |
| 17:25:41 | kaen | all of debian, all of ubuntu, all of mint... |
| 17:25:47 | raptor | 'filter down' was a bad idiom |
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| 17:26:12 | kaen | especially since bitfighter is multiplayer. |
| 17:26:30 | kaen | I've played exactly two active multiplayer games on linux besides bitfighter |
| 17:26:57 | raptor | koda: your hedgewars game took off a couple years ago - any pointers in getting a bigger player base? :) |
| 17:27:01 | raptor | kaen: good point |
| 17:28:50 | raptor | maybe we just need to polish the game more |
| 17:28:55 | raptor | make it dumber |
| 17:29:00 | raptor | err.. easier for people |
| 17:30:08 | kaen | I 100% agree |
| 17:30:42 | raptor | so making the level start-up screen easier to read is a good thing! :) |
| 17:33:30 | raptor | we should probably takes koda's remark seriously and move the start-up name entry screen to elsewhere |
| 17:34:31 | koda | +1 |
| 17:34:40 | koda | dunno what happened and how it took off |
| 17:34:46 | koda | i think media helped a lot |
| 17:34:56 | koda | and the release of a lower quality concurrent game helped too |
| 17:35:05 | raptor | ? |
| 17:35:32 | raptor | what does that mean? some other open source game was released at the same time and yours was better? |
| 17:36:12 | koda | a commercial one |
| 17:36:17 | raptor | oh really |
| 17:36:49 | koda | yeah then there was the ios port and stuff |
| 17:36:56 | koda | until it ended |
| 17:38:34 | raptor | oh wow kaen, i just saw: TPPLPartition::ConvexPartition_HM |
| 17:38:47 | raptor | could that replace both triangle AND recast? |
| 17:39:16 | kaen | hmm, maybe |
| 17:39:19 | kaen | I hadn't even seen it |
| 17:40:11 | kaen | interesting fact about polypart is that it requires non-holes to be CCW and holes to be CW |
| 17:40:27 | kaen | but then also has a SetHole() mutator |
| 17:40:33 | kaen | and a SetOrientation() ... |
| 17:40:35 | raptor | interesting.. |
| 17:41:16 | kaen | kind of a burden of choice... right now it's returning a failure code so I have to figure out my input windings |
| 17:41:54 | Watusimoto | I don't actually think the startup screen is that bad |
| 17:42:16 | Watusimoto | as in, it's pretty obvious what people need to do |
| 17:42:43 | Watusimoto | I think stuff like I was talking about earlier (bot manager, more in-game help) would have a bigger impact |
| 17:43:00 | raptor | koda: which commercial game was it (if you don't mind my asking)? |
| 17:43:00 | kaen | yeah, it seems that they make it past the login screen just fine |
| 17:43:24 | Watusimoto | I mean the first screen can and should be improved, but I don't think anyone is turned back because of it |
| 17:43:46 | Watusimoto | look at minecraft |
| 17:43:51 | Watusimoto | (or don't!) |
| 17:43:59 | Watusimoto | their login screen is the first thing yousee |
| 17:44:09 | koda | raptor, some worms game that got highly criticised |
| 17:44:25 | Watusimoto | but, it has other stuff going on there as well, so it's not quite like ours in the sense that we have login and nothing else |
| 17:44:40 | koda | this in turn angered the studio sotware devs and sent us a letter of cease and desist |
| 17:44:45 | Watusimoto | I think we might do better to revamp the login screen by adding teh game logo and perhaps the motd |
| 17:44:47 | koda | and scared a lot of people away |
| 17:45:16 | Watusimoto | btw, hi koda |
| 17:45:34 | koda | hi Watusimoto :) |
| 17:46:39 | raptor | koda: it doesn't look like you've ceased or desisted... |
| 17:47:13 | raptor | Watusimoto: that's a good alternative to the login screen that I hadn't considered! |
| 17:47:46 | Watusimoto | imagine the animation plays and you can login on that screen |
| 17:48:28 | Watusimoto | and then continue on to the main screen, with the logo staying in place (or animation continuing to play as required) |
| 17:48:56 | Watusimoto | also I think we should play up the idea of miniaturized combat a little more (a little more than not at all, that is) |
| 17:49:59 | | kaen Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 17:50:17 | Watusimoto | maybe probably only in the intro screen, though |
| 17:50:56 | Watusimoto | I'll take a shot at what I'm thinking and you can give me some feedback |
| 17:51:12 | raptor | ok :) |
| 17:52:35 | Watusimoto | there's about a gazillion raptors on stack overflow, btw |
| 17:54:14 | Watusimoto | oh wait, you're not raptor there |
| 17:57:35 | Watusimoto | I modified your question slightly, to try to clarify what we need |
| 17:57:48 | Watusimoto | wait a minute... you are raptor there |
| 17:58:06 | Watusimoto | ok, I'm totally confused -- you didn;t show up in the users named raptor search |
| 17:59:17 | Watusimoto | I like the relicensing suggestion |
| 17:59:36 | raptor | i'm raptor, yes |
| 17:59:38 | raptor | sometimes |
| 18:00:37 | raptor | you think asking him to opensource the library is good? |
| 18:01:07 | raptor | I have thought of that in the past, but decided against it because of the language used on his site |
| 18:03:26 | Watusimoto | I'll reply to your question after dinner |
| 18:03:28 | Watusimoto | gotta go! |
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| 18:42:22 | bobdaduck | I, for one, welcome our new dutch overlords. |
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| 18:48:08 | raptor | bobdaduck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np23fmcm52o |
| 18:52:09 | bobdaduck | I think |
| 18:52:16 | bobdaduck | the best way to actually learn the game |
| 18:52:22 | bobdaduck | might be to just actually play it. |
| 18:53:11 | bobdaduck | The old stocks were so simple they were good for that. |
| 18:59:12 | raptor | yeah - i killed the tutorial server |
| 18:59:37 | raptor | maybe we should do a new tutorial server with Quartz' complete tutorial map |
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| 19:12:43 | raptor | I'm waiting for the usual SO comment - "why would you ask this, just figure it out yourself, stop making me whine and waste my time responding to you" |
| 19:14:53 | raptor | but then I wonder - if those are common on my questions, maybe there's something wrong with me.. |
| 19:23:04 | bobdaduck | xD |
| 19:25:39 | Watusimoto | raptor: your question was a good one |
| 19:25:52 | Watusimoto | you obviously did your research |
| 19:25:59 | Watusimoto | so |
| 19:26:14 | Watusimoto | kaen: what are the licenensing requirements that we need to use triangle in debian? |
| 19:26:28 | kaen | well, we can use triangle as is |
| 19:26:36 | kaen | it's in debian's non-free repo though |
| 19:26:42 | kaen | so using it puts us there too |
| 19:26:53 | kaen | and non-free isn't enabled by default |
| 19:27:08 | raptor | ^^that's the clincher |
| 19:27:31 | kaen | basically we'll reach an order of magnitude more users by making it into the main repo |
| 19:28:08 | Watusimoto | but if I wanted to ask the author to relicense the code, what would we ask him to do, exactly? pick a mainstream license like gpl? |
| 19:28:21 | kaen | yeah, but lgpl is preferable |
| 19:28:22 | raptor | so i was thinking |
| 19:28:25 | raptor | MIT! |
| 19:28:32 | kaen | mit is best |
| 19:28:51 | kaen | but I don't see that happening if he explicitly prohibited commercial use in the last one |
| 19:28:56 | Watusimoto | do you have any information about what is objectionable in the current license? |
| 19:29:11 | raptor | but I was thinking about this - can one dual-license the're software like so: MIT for open-source projects, otherwise proprietary for commercial? |
| 19:29:13 | kaen | he explicitly prohibited commercial use |
| 19:29:23 | Watusimoto | remember that the author may have moved on to other things and may have realized any commercial potential he thinks he can get |
| 19:30:14 | raptor | Watusimoto: that's true - maybe a simple e-mail "We're an OSS project and love your library, have you thought about relicensing under MIT or similar license?" |
| 19:30:23 | Watusimoto | well, licensing it gpl basically addresses his commercial issues |
| 19:30:45 | Watusimoto | he could dual license gpl for the world, whatever for whomever else he wants to deal with |
| 19:30:54 | Watusimoto | basically what tnl did |
| 19:31:21 | Watusimoto | gpl doesn't rule out commercial software, but it comes close |
| 19:31:32 | Watusimoto | and gpl is ok for debian, right? |
| 19:31:44 | kaen | under the libTriangle debian packaging process entry: "License: non-free (distribution for fee prohibited)" |
| 19:31:48 | kaen | gpl is fine |
| 19:31:58 | kaen | I think lgpl is required for libraries though |
| 19:32:03 | kaen | I can check |
| 19:32:21 | Watusimoto | lgpl is similar in effect to mit, right? |
| 19:32:28 | raptor | NO WAY |
| 19:32:32 | raptor | i mean, no way |
| 19:32:40 | raptor | LGPL is very restrictively open |
| 19:33:23 | raptor | no wait, GPL is more so |
| 19:33:46 | raptor | you can link against LGPL OK and not need to release the sources of your main project |
| 19:34:09 | raptor | that's why it's 'lesser' - if it was normal GPL and you link against it, that means your entire project must be GPL, too |
| 19:34:21 | Watusimoto | ok, so you basically need to keep the lgpl stuff open, but the rest can be closed |
| 19:34:41 | Watusimoto | whereas with mit, it can all be closed |
| 19:34:42 | raptor | yes, lesser == doesn't force you to be open if you just link |
| 19:34:48 | raptor | correct |
| 19:35:15 | Watusimoto | ok, to me, for a library you are using as is, it's essentially the same |
| 19:35:20 | raptor | yep |
| 19:35:33 | raptor | except we have some minor additions to it.. but we can probably move those out |
| 19:35:43 | raptor | and we're open source anyways.. |
| 19:35:49 | Watusimoto | I can make my closed source code, the libarary remains open (but why would i care), and so on |
| 19:35:50 | Watusimoto | yes |
| 19:36:28 | kaen | okay, so if you could get him to relicense it under any of these: http://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses#The_Big_DFSG-compatible_Licenses |
| 19:36:35 | kaen | it can go into main |
| 19:37:12 | raptor | I'm a big fan of the MIT/BSD stuff |
| 19:37:15 | kaen | me too |
| 19:37:25 | kaen | but I think that's a pipe dream in this scenario... |
| 19:37:28 | raptor | but LGPL 2.0 is OK... |
| 19:37:33 | kaen | depends on how crotchety of an old man he is |
| 19:38:01 | raptor | heh |
| 19:38:27 | raptor | I can see his point though - it's a quality library that he put real time into (and he's in academia..) |
| 19:40:03 | raptor | maybe that means I'm becoming crotchety |
| 19:40:09 | raptor | :) |
| 19:41:06 | kaen | He actually doesn't seem too old (or crotchety) based on his personal page |
| 19:41:15 | kaen | maybe he'll have some sympathy |
| 19:42:59 | kaen | according to this, a debian maintainer already tried to reason with him: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=490100#10 |
| 19:43:26 | kaen | but there's no response posted anywhere, so I'm not sure exactly how it went |
| 19:44:03 | Watusimoto | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Shewchuk |
| 19:44:29 | Watusimoto | just as background |
| 19:44:30 | raptor | Three Sins of Authors In Computer Science And Math |
| 19:44:33 | raptor | heh |
| 19:44:44 | Watusimoto | In 2003 he was awarded J. H. Wilkinson Prize for Numerical Software for writing the Triangle software package which computes high-quality unstructured triangular meshes. |
| 19:49:51 | raptor | so we're stalking him to see how to best approach |
| 19:54:02 | Watusimoto | but GPL is not acceptable? it's on that list |
| 19:54:52 | raptor | I don't like the GPL |
| 19:55:03 | raptor | but it would probably work |
| 19:55:15 | Watusimoto | this is about what works |
| 19:55:19 | Watusimoto | in my opinion |
| 19:55:22 | raptor | so basically... yes |
| 19:55:27 | raptor | it's not about what I like :) |
| 19:55:41 | Watusimoto | ok, because before kaen suggested gpl would not work for a library |
| 19:55:47 | Watusimoto | but... new information? |
| 19:55:55 | raptor | did he? |
| 19:56:20 | raptor | usually libraries are LGPL to be a bit more friendly because their libraries and allow the linking |
| 19:56:20 | Watusimoto | well, he also said it was fine |
| 19:56:26 | Watusimoto | so ... |
| 19:56:33 | Watusimoto | or maybe that's all he said |
| 19:58:10 | raptor | GPL would work, it just that most people considering an open-source license for a library aren't that mean |
| 19:58:24 | kaen | yes GPL would work |
| 19:58:30 | kaen | sorry, I was mistaken earlier |
| 19:59:00 | kaen | that email I posted earlier was from 2008 |
| 19:59:20 | kaen | maybe the last four years has instilled some wisdom in him :) |
| 20:01:26 | kaen | code.google.com has being acting erratically for me today |
| 20:01:40 | raptor | yes, they have readonly project hosting at th emoment |
| 20:01:58 | raptor | or did... earlier |
| 20:02:01 | raptor | for maintenance |
| 20:07:35 | Watusimoto | here's a draft |
| 20:07:36 | Watusimoto | http://0bin.net/paste/9aafd36ae316e6dc0d5bd5971128e18c2cee21cd#DBiqTSl+DzEM7FaqoKNlMj7XfstGhQsVQaCuQfTyI4A= |
| 20:07:45 | Watusimoto | will delete itself after a day |
| 20:08:23 | Watusimoto | kaen: we don't know how he replied to that message, or what his reasoning was |
| 20:09:09 | Watusimoto | thoguh I guess we do know that the licesene did not change |
| 20:09:42 | Watusimoto | "the open source game called bitfighter" "the artist formerly known as #$%^&" |
| 20:09:55 | raptor | maybe - no response could have been given |
| 20:19:27 | Watusimoto | hmmmm any idea what;s wrong with this line? |
| 20:19:28 | Watusimoto | mUi = mUi; |
| 20:19:41 | Watusimoto | no wonder mUi is NULL |
| 20:22:55 | raptor | ha |
| 20:23:00 | raptor | (reading the thingy) |
| 20:24:20 | raptor | lead developer of Bitfighter, an open source game |
| 20:24:25 | raptor | I like it |
| 20:34:27 | Watusimoto | arguably, his current license is pretty free compared to things like the GPL |
| 20:34:39 | raptor | yes, I agree |
| 20:34:46 | raptor | quite permissive |
| 20:34:48 | Watusimoto | in fact, I suspect the real problem is that his license is not standard |
| 20:34:53 | raptor | for our purposes |
| 20:35:03 | raptor | that actually may be true |
| 20:35:12 | raptor | maybe we can get the debian folks to review it? |
| 20:35:15 | Watusimoto | I am writing to ask if you would consider relicensing (or dual-licensing) Triangle under a more standard license, su |
| 20:35:24 | Watusimoto | I changed that sentence to refelct this belief |
| 20:35:29 | raptor | good idea |
| 20:35:34 | Watusimoto | (used to refer to permissive) |
| 20:36:12 | Watusimoto | I suspect that asking debian folks to review it would either meet with flat refusal, or endless process. Probably one then the other |
| 20:37:18 | raptor | heh |
| 20:37:33 | raptor | and we don't know anyone on the inside.. |
| 20:37:52 | Watusimoto | ok, well, I'll let the letter sit for a bit, and send it later tonight |
| 20:38:42 | raptor | ok |
| 20:38:52 | raptor | side note - I like zerobin |
| 20:41:40 | Watusimoto | yes |
| 20:41:56 | Watusimoto | trying to use it more |
| 20:42:13 | Watusimoto | I especially like the burn after reading |
| 20:42:41 | Watusimoto | I may have mentioned I was going to build my own site to support that particular feature because I thought it was missing from the major pastebins |
| 20:42:47 | Watusimoto | and I think it's extremely useful |
| 20:43:02 | Watusimoto | I send you a pw, you confirm receipt, then I send you the doc that uses that pw |
| 20:43:18 | Watusimoto | or rather I send you a file encrypted with that pw |
| 20:43:27 | raptor | what's missing the secure transmission of the pw and url |
| 20:43:32 | Watusimoto | no one else can get the pw by reading your email |
| 20:43:36 | raptor | you could use cryptocat :) |
| 20:43:53 | Watusimoto | and if it's interecepted before hand, we'd know because you couldn't get the pw |
| 20:44:08 | Watusimoto | cryptocat is synchronous |
| 20:44:18 | raptor | ah |
| 20:44:21 | raptor | i see.. |
| 20:44:34 | Watusimoto | burn after reading lets us use email |
| 20:45:48 | raptor | yes, but if intercepted, you lost the important data |
| 20:46:00 | Watusimoto | no, you lose nothing |
| 20:46:22 | Watusimoto | if email 1 is intercepted, you lose the pw, but you don't send the document |
| 20:46:28 | Watusimoto | you renecrypt and try again |
| 20:46:36 | Watusimoto | only after the pw is received do you send the document |
| 20:46:54 | raptor | yes.. |
| 20:47:08 | raptor | but e-mail isn't secure transmission |
| 20:47:08 | Watusimoto | the main attack vectors are 1) someone intercepting and responding to your email |
| 20:47:18 | Watusimoto | it doesn't need to be; that's the beauty of it |
| 20:47:25 | raptor | so both e-mails pw and doc are copied |
| 20:47:30 | raptor | and used |
| 20:47:36 | raptor | without any knowledge |
| 20:47:49 | Watusimoto | but you know if the attacker has the pw before you send the document |
| 20:47:55 | raptor | how? |
| 20:48:04 | raptor | it's e-mail... |
| 20:48:26 | raptor | a simple sniff will pick it up.. (maybe I'm missing some component here..) |
| 20:48:50 | Watusimoto | the 0bin addr is in the email. if the attacker intercepts the pw email, and retrieves the pw from 0bin, with burn after reading enabled, reading the message destroys it, so you can't get it |
| 20:49:04 | raptor | ohhhhhhh |
| 20:49:05 | Watusimoto | if you are unable to get the pw, we know it was intercepted and we try again |
| 20:49:10 | raptor | you put the password on 0bin |
| 20:49:13 | raptor | ah ok |
| 20:49:14 | Watusimoto | yes |
| 20:49:23 | Watusimoto | and when you have the pw, attackers can't get it subsequently |
| 20:49:27 | raptor | now that makes sense |
| 20:49:27 | Watusimoto | because it was burned |
| 20:49:48 | Watusimoto | sorry if I wasn't c;ear |
| 20:49:53 | raptor | you'd have to control the server to know it was actually burned.. |
| 20:50:01 | Watusimoto | I've been thinking about it for almost a year, so the concpet is pretty clear |
| 20:50:24 | Watusimoto | yes, but even if it were not, is the attacker likely to have access to the server? |
| 20:50:39 | Watusimoto | and you can install the software on your own machine if you are super paranoid |
| 20:51:33 | Watusimoto | http://0bin.net/paste/4d509ace205ad73f1192b12c8cde6624efb9e2a7#cwoqNOvT+MiIViVO4ekQcpTSPE9GdJA8x33YCCpTq9o= |
| 20:51:36 | | YoshiSmb has joined |
| 20:52:51 | raptor | "This is a test. Can't see it twice!" |
| 20:52:54 | raptor | heh, neat |
| 20:53:19 | YoshiSmb | -_- |
| 20:53:51 | raptor | i should set up an implementation of that here... |
| 20:55:07 | Watusimoto | well... if you paste the password into irc, the scheme kind of falls apart |
| 20:55:12 | Watusimoto | :-) |
| 20:55:17 | raptor | no! |
| 20:55:20 | raptor | ok yes |
| 20:56:05 | Watusimoto | well, I did a MAJOR refactor, and, well, some stuff is NULL where it shouldn't be |
| 20:56:18 | Watusimoto | boo |
| 20:56:36 | Watusimoto | most rendering is now out of clientGame |
| 20:56:43 | raptor | OOooo |
| 20:57:01 | Watusimoto | trying to isolate it so we can try testing it |
| 20:57:36 | Watusimoto | this turned out to be much more painful that anticipated. |
| 20:57:52 | Watusimoto | clientGame IS (or was) an FXRenderer |
| 20:57:57 | raptor | yes... that's why i havent' started playing with it much |
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| 21:01:21 | YoshiSmb | oh great. little_apple is here. |
| 21:01:29 | Little_Apple | hello |
| 21:01:47 | YoshiSmb | hi |
| 21:03:11 | kaen | greetings, gentleeveryone |
| 21:04:20 | Watusimoto | it works!!!! |
| 21:04:37 | Watusimoto | hey y'all |
| 21:04:38 | raptor | yay |
| 21:07:15 | Watusimoto | next step (maybe later date) is to pass a UI object to clientGame; then we can mock one up and test it with no user interface |
| 21:07:41 | Watusimoto | but I'll start working on bug fixes or youtube related fixes for a while |
| 21:10:53 | raptor | and i'll... study hard for my final |
| 21:11:00 | kaen | "then we can mock one up and test it with no user interface" <-- I mutter this in my sleep |
| 21:11:13 | raptor | haha |
| 21:12:08 | raptor | 0bin under the WTF license |
| 21:12:38 | raptor | that's one of my favorite licenses, strong language aside :) |
| 21:13:37 | raptor | and poor grammar aside (shame on them ending with a preposition!) |
| 21:17:33 | | BFLogBot Commit: 2a3f9bee84d1 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Move most major rendering code out of ClientGame. This will ease the path toward a testable future. |
| 21:17:34 | | BFLogBot Commit: d75f1432c9ff | Author: watusimoto | Message: Rename gSparks to mSparks, as it's not at all global. Not even a tiny bit. |
| 21:17:36 | | BFLogBot Commit: 67d34c60a7dc | Author: watusimoto | Message: Merge |
| 21:18:01 | raptor | hehe |
| 21:24:58 | | BFLogBot Commit: c4240bfa7411 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Whitespace |
| 21:26:08 | | LordDVG Quit (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 21:27:35 | raptor | if every enum had its own header, we could reduce our header include chain... |
| 21:31:53 | | Little_Apple Quit (Quit: Page closed) |
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| 21:45:35 | Watusimoto | yes, but that would be awkward |
| 21:46:44 | raptor | but it would speed up compiling by like 1%! |
| 22:01:58 | | bobdaduck Quit (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:23:52 | | BFLogBot Commit: 5aec081c1708 | Author: watusimoto | Message: Whitespaces |
| 22:24:51 | Watusimoto | good night! |
| 22:26:37 | | fordcars Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 22:30:37 | raptor | night! |
| 22:47:26 | | Watusimoto Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
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| 23:06:15 | raptor | kaen: where are your efforts placed at the moment, polypartition? |
| 23:06:30 | kaen | raptor http://imgbin.org/index.php?page=image&id=12927 |
| 23:06:38 | kaen | I was literally uploading that as you pinged me |
| 23:06:39 | raptor | progress!!! |
| 23:06:51 | kaen | ... |
| 23:07:16 | raptor | you have no idea how many of those pictures just like that we went through to get our current implementation working... |
| 23:07:41 | kaen | okay I feel better |
| 23:07:45 | raptor | also, if you haven't done it yet, turn off recast |
| 23:07:53 | kaen | I have not |
| 23:07:56 | kaen | that's a good idea |
| 23:08:34 | raptor | yeah just pump the PP output directly to the zone output |
| 23:08:39 | kaen | polypartition chokes and refuses to process the input for bitmatch01 |
| 23:08:47 | raptor | what really?? |
| 23:08:50 | raptor | that stinks |
| 23:09:01 | kaen | yeah, I haven't been able to determine why yet |
| 23:09:18 | raptor | also try testing a simple map in a single editor quadrant |
| 23:09:22 | kaen | it may have something to do with overlapping holes, but the input it gets is kind of weird |
| 23:09:27 | kaen | oh yeah good idea |
| 23:12:07 | raptor | i wonder if watusimoto sent the e-mail to the Triangle author.. |
| 23:14:28 | kaen | how do suggest I turn off recast? I tried replacing: "recastPassed = Triangulate::mergeTriangles(triangleData, mesh);" with "recastPassed = true" |
| 23:14:35 | kaen | and got no output zones (that I can see) |
| 23:15:11 | raptor | looking... i remember it was somewhat simple |
| 23:16:02 | raptor | just keep recastPassed to be false and comment out the block that uses it |
| 23:16:43 | raptor | or just comment out line 532 (I think) |
| 23:16:44 | kaen | here it is in the positive quadrant with recast: http://imgbin.org/index.php?page=image&id=12929 |
| 23:16:58 | raptor | beautiful! |
| 23:18:37 | kaen | that one triangle which is entirely onscreen and appropriately spaced from the wall |
| 23:18:41 | kaen | gives me a tiny shred of hope. |
| 23:18:46 | kaen | I love that triangle. |
| 23:18:48 | raptor | ha! |
| 23:19:43 | raptor | you should also know that watusimoto, sam686, and I spent about month straight working several hours each day getting this to work properly |
| 23:19:57 | raptor | granted, much of it was research |
| 23:20:06 | raptor | since we were completely new to this area of coding |
| 23:20:39 | raptor | so in my opinion, your progress has been remarkable :) |
| 23:21:22 | kaen | heh thanks :) |
| 23:21:37 | kaen | it's not even a comparable task though because I had a working model to adapt |
| 23:21:44 | kaen | http://imgbin.org/index.php?page=image&id=12930 |
| 23:21:50 | kaen | recastPassed = false |
| 23:22:02 | kaen | that point that they all go to is the origin |
| 23:22:49 | raptor | good |
| 23:23:32 | raptor | there's your triangle! |
| 23:23:41 | kaen | hehe |
| 23:23:53 | kaen | I wonder why that one isn't all derpy like the others |
| 23:23:56 | raptor | so maybe the other triangles are being built out correctly? |
| 23:25:43 | raptor | are *not* |
| 23:25:44 | raptor | i mean |
| 23:26:14 | kaen | also, any idea why the zone ids are all 0xFFFF ? |
| 23:26:16 | raptor | heh, also all have the same zone number... |
| 23:26:55 | raptor | i think we support up to 2^16 zones... |
| 23:26:58 | raptor | -1 |
| 23:27:00 | raptor | brb |
| 23:29:23 | raptor | hmm ok |
| 23:31:28 | raptor | ok, they're all the same because of a bug |
| 23:31:42 | raptor | line 617: BotNavMeshZone *botzone = new BotNavMeshZone(); |
| 23:32:46 | raptor | should be: BotNavMeshZone *botzone = new BotNavMeshZone(i); |
| 23:32:49 | raptor | i think |
| 23:33:02 | raptor | that way each zone is created with a number.. |
| 23:34:04 | kaen | yep that fixed it |
| 23:34:16 | raptor | kaen: could the corner problem be due to uninitialized data for a vertex? |
| 23:34:41 | kaen | it seems so |
| 23:34:49 | kaen | I get different patterns every time I reload the level |
| 23:34:58 | kaen | and it occasionally crashes too |
| 23:35:01 | raptor | ha! |
| 23:35:04 | kaen | on identical input |
| 23:37:16 | raptor | i remember getting my arrays always set up wrongly |
| 23:37:25 | raptor | with input to triangle |
| 23:37:31 | raptor | Triangle |
| 23:37:35 | kaen | gg Triangle |
| 23:37:36 | kaen | http://imgbin.org/index.php?page=image&id=12931 |
| 23:38:24 | raptor | yay! |
| 23:38:34 | raptor | wait... that's with Triangle? |
| 23:38:48 | kaen | no |
| 23:38:49 | raptor | or PP |
| 23:38:50 | kaen | it's with PP |
| 23:38:53 | raptor | !! |
| 23:39:03 | raptor | it looks.... perfect! |
| 23:39:06 | kaen | let's see how recast goes... |
| 23:40:46 | kaen | http://imgbin.org/index.php?page=image&id=12932 |
| 23:41:01 | raptor | PREFECT! |
| 23:41:06 | raptor | uhh.. prefect! |
| 23:41:10 | raptor | argh perfect |
| 23:41:10 | kaen | lol |
| 23:41:53 | kaen | still chokes on bitmatch01 though |
| 23:42:21 | raptor | well that's no good |
| 23:43:35 | kaen | fortunately I have developed a fairly advanced debugging facility... |
| 23:43:42 | kaen | http://imgbin.org/index.php?page=image&id=12933 |
| 23:43:54 | kaen | it's a matplotlib visualization of the data PP receives as input |
| 23:44:16 | kaen | the first is the bounding rectangle, all of the subsequent blue polygons are marked as holes |
| 23:44:27 | kaen | the final is a composite of all the polygons to verify placement |
| 23:45:02 | kaen | notice that the last two on the top row are convex hulls of the exterior and interior perimeter of the surrounding wall |
| 23:45:11 | kaen | I believe this is what is causing PP to choke |
| 23:45:35 | kaen | because they are both "holes" but one is inside of the other |
| 23:45:52 | | YoshiSmb has left |
| 23:46:32 | raptor | huh |
| 23:46:37 | raptor | yep that would break it |
| 23:46:47 | raptor | also AWESOME debugging utility.. |
| 23:46:55 | kaen | thanks! |
| 23:47:22 | raptor | does that mean the holes are being built incorrectly? |
| 23:47:38 | kaen | in my opinion, yes |
| 23:48:10 | raptor | and you didn't touch the holes code, did you? |
| 23:48:14 | kaen | nope |
| 23:48:21 | raptor | interesting... |
| 23:48:25 | kaen | everything I did was in processComplex |
| 23:48:42 | | fordcars Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 23:48:50 | kaen | let's see if slightly overlapping holes will kill it |
| 23:49:47 | raptor | heh |
| 23:50:47 | raptor | maybe overlapping holes in itself is the issue.. |
| 23:50:59 | kaen | okay, overlapping polywalls are fine, a polywall entirely within another is also fine |
| 23:51:16 | raptor | so it's the coincident issue? man.. |
| 23:51:18 | kaen | but a barriermaker completely surrounding the polywall with a small offset will kill it |
| 23:51:49 | raptor | http://code.google.com/p/polypartition/issues/detail?id=3 |
| 23:52:56 | kaen | these holes don't touch the outer edge of the bounds polygon though |
| 23:53:08 | raptor | hmm, true |
| 23:53:34 | kaen | okay, so if I make a gap in the surrounding wall big enough for a ship to fit through it's fine |
| 23:53:45 | raptor | oh |
| 23:53:48 | raptor | just so you know |
| 23:53:56 | raptor | the holes are expanded |
| 23:54:04 | raptor | 1/2 ships width |
| 23:54:10 | raptor | that's how we keep bots away from walls |
| 23:54:27 | kaen | right |
| 23:54:59 | raptor | so with overlapping barriers, that would create overlapping holes |
| 23:56:05 | kaen | overlapping holes don't choke it though, I just checked |
| 23:56:48 | raptor | well... try ctf 01 |
| 23:56:52 | raptor | for fun |
| 23:57:06 | raptor | or even just a plain barrier box |
| 23:57:52 | kaen | hmm actually I haven't disproved overlapping holes |
| 23:58:04 | kaen | the barriers get sent in merged as a single hole |
| 23:58:43 | raptor | so maybe that's a bug and Triangle just happens to handle it well... |
| 23:59:51 | raptor | interesting |
| 23:59:53 | | sam686 has joined |
| 23:59:54 | | ChanServ sets mode +v sam686 |
| 23:59:59 | raptor | static void buildHolesList |
